Is this Really Needed

[JoeGuzzi]

On my 2004 Ballabio there is a small crossover on the front of the exhaust headers. Is this really needed? The crossover is loose and rattles alot. From what I have seen on the fourms this crossover bushings/gaskets are a problem. Now the questions, The bike came with another set of headers that do not have a crossover as well as a set of steel bushings for the stock crossover. Which way to go? If I put in the steel bushings will the head pipes crack? If I replace the stock head pipes with the new ones that have no crossover what effect can I expect? Should I just pay the $75.00 they want for a stock set of crossover gaskets and install them?

I am new to this bike and need some advice before I correct this "Rattle". By the way the bike has an aftermarket crossover under the trans, the stock "H" pipe came with th spare parts box.

 

Thanks in Advance for any help or insight any of you can offer.

 

Joe in Atlanta

1972 Eldorado

2004 Ballabio

[rocker59]

If I had a spare set of "non crossover" headers laying around, they'd be on my bike pronto!

[Guest ratchethack]

Hi Joe. My Pal endured a litany of grief with the front crossover on his '04 LM, per many previous posts on this. After many trips back to the dealer with no joy solving the rattling and apparently unsealable front crossover, and after much deliberation, he found out from Todd Eagan at GuzziTech that Todd had never seen any difference on a dyno before and after removing the front crossover. So he finally had the pipe "spigots" welded shut. No change in performance as far as he could tell, and much joy due to no leaks, and merciful relief from the constant banging against the alternator cover. I reckon there's no way of determining in advance wot might or might not tend to make the pipes crack, but my Pal's cracked many times, both before and after the front crossover was removed. IIRC, he wasn't paying much attention to stresses on the system and hadn't given much thought to carefully tightening it up so as to relieve the stresses.

 

Wot Rocker said. With your spare set of head pipes already in hand, it'd be a no brainer. I'd have that funky front crossover and those stock headpipes off and have the new ones on there PDQ, with high expectations for substantially more enjoyable riding.

 

BAA, TJM & YMMV

[gstallons]

All older vehicles with dual exhaust and m/cycles like triumph had the "H" pipe on them. These exhaust "pulses" do something in this crossover .'They traditionally helped horsepower and or torque . Believe me , no unnessary parts are on motorcycles or airplanes. MG would not have that pipe on there if the engineers didn't think it wasn't needed. I would take the word of a dyno before I removed this part.

[Guest ratchethack]

Yep, there's a "reason" for front crossovers, alright. But in some cases, the theoretical "reason" can translate to more grief than benefit in practice. In the case of the V11, it was engineered in with slightly more valve overlap on the cam for the "theoretical" purpose of providing more mid-range torque to fill in the "hole" in the torque curve at 4500 RPM. But it seems to've lost something in translation somewhere between theory and practice, and it doesn't seem to've worked out all that well. Aftermarket replacements for the "underneath" crossover, however, provide conclusive improvements both on the dyno and by "seat o' the pants" (by my own experience). I've been wrestling with "near head" crossovers on twins since my first one on a 1969 A65 BSA. That one wasn't nearly so nasty to deal with, didn't leak nearly as badly, didn't bang on anything, and actually seemed to provide some tolerable value. As I noted in my post above, I'd also tend to rely on wot the dyno says. Again -- the front crossover on the '04 LMs doesn't do anything that shows up on dyno charts according to Todd at GuzziTech -- who's spent untold mega-hours on dyno's with V11's -- but of course this is second-hand info, and by all means, take that and the experience of my Pal and his '04 LM for wotever you think it might be worth.

[JoeGuzzi]

Thanks for the speedy replies. Sounds like I should just take the wrap off the new headers and install them to solve this rattle for good.

 

Thans Again

 

Joe in Atlanta

1972 Eldorado

2004 Ballabio

[gstallons]

Yep, there's a "reason" for front crossovers, alright. But in some cases, the theoretical "reason" can translate to more grief than benefit in practice. In the case of the V11, it was engineered in with slightly more valve overlap on the cam for the "theoretical" purpose of providing more mid-range torque to fill in the "hole" in the torque curve at 4500 RPM. But it seems to've lost something in translation somewhere between theory and practice, and it doesn't seem to've worked out all that well. Aftermarket replacements for the "underneath" crossover, however, provide conclusive improvements both on the dyno and by "seat o' the pants" (by my own experience). I've been wrestling with "near head" crossovers on twins since my first one on a 1969 A65 BSA. That one wasn't nearly so nasty to deal with, didn't leak nearly as badly, didn't bang on anything, and actually seemed to provide some tolerable value. As I noted in my post above, I'd also tend to rely on wot the dyno says. Again -- the front crossover on the '04 LMs doesn't do anything that shows up on dyno charts according to Todd at GuzziTech -- who's spent untold mega-hours on dyno's with V11's -- but of course this is second-hand info, and by all means, take that and the experience of my Pal and his '04 LM for wotever you think it might be worth.

My input wasn't meant to discount any findings from guzzitech or anyone else.

[Guest ratchethack]

My input wasn't meant to discount any findings from guzzitech or anyone else.

No problemo, mi compadre!

 

All rational, lucid, logical, well-founded (founded on terra firma, y'unnerstan'!) perspectives -- such as yours above -- always more'n welcome (at least by Yours Truly) 24/7/365.

[gstallons]

I am a mechanic (37 yrs) and a vocational teacher (2 yrs) and am beginning to think like my father "if they wanted that s&*t on there they would have put it on there" My little brother quoted George Carlin about this. "You know what scares me is I'm beginning to agree with my Dad. And he's NOT gettin' any cooler!"

[Greg Field]

I have the steel shims in the crossover, and do not like them. There's always a little leak I have tried to but have not been able to cure.

 

Soon, I will get the stock gaskets and install them by the method developed by our (Moto Intl.) shop manager, Micha. Install the new gaskets but leave the crossover clamps and nuts at the cylinder head slightly loose. Then, use an ancra-type tiedown around the two headers, and cinch it tight, to clamp the crossover and gaskets between the two headers. Then, tighten the clamps and header nuts. That method has resulted in zero cracks and zero leaks for our customers for over two years.

 

I rarely disagree with Todd Eagan, but I do about there being some benefit to the front crossover. Reasonable people sometimes disagree. It's not one bit a slam aimed at Todd, whom I respect copmpletely.

[docc]

I thought the later model front crossover was introduced to remedy the infamous 4000 rpm flat spot (or torque dip).

 

Do these later motors have less of a torque dip in stock form on the dyno?

 

As an aside, I recall a pointed discussion with a lifetime engineer. He assured me that engineers know what they are doing and the information they provide with their designs should be relied upon. Later, I learned that it is vital to understand the engineers purpose since it might not be consistent with what you are trying to achieve.

 

(Kind of like changing the frame and geometry of the V11 to deal with "instability" when tires and suspension set-up may have been the better, albeit less universally attainable, answer. )

 

The case in point with my engineer acquaintance was the tire pressure specified for the Ford Explorer. At 26 psi, the engineers were attempting to achieve the softest ride possible from the early live axle/twin I-beam suspension. Of course the tires didn't fare all that well and ultimately led to the near death experience with Firestone.

[orangeokie]

On my 2004 Ballabio there is a small crossover on the front of the exhaust headers. Is this really needed? The crossover is loose and rattles alot. From what I have seen on the fourms this crossover bushings/gaskets are a problem. Now the questions, The bike came with another set of headers that do not have a crossover as well as a set of steel bushings for the stock crossover. Which way to go? If I put in the steel bushings will the head pipes crack? If I replace the stock head pipes with the new ones that have no crossover what effect can I expect? Should I just pay the $75.00 they want for a stock set of crossover gaskets and install them?

I am new to this bike and need some advice before I correct this "Rattle". By the way the bike has an aftermarket crossover under the trans, the stock "H" pipe came with th spare parts box.

 

Thanks in Advance for any help or insight any of you can offer.

 

Joe in Atlanta

1972 Eldorado

2004 Ballabio

 

 

Link 1

 

Link 2

 

 

I bought these from Todd for my '03 Rosso Corsa with the Ti pipes and race chip, designed for the front cross over type headers. My left header had developed a crack, so I made the switch. Seat of the pants can't detect any drop off in performance.

 

[GuzziMoto]

There are some talented engineers out there. But to assume that because an engineer designed something a certain way it is how it should be is wrong. There are so many things that were designed by engineers that were total failures that we have a series of tv shows about them. Engineers are human and humans make mistakes. So even if the engineers goals are the same as yours, that does not mean that it is right.

There are so many shortcomings in the Guzzi. But that is one of it's charms. You can actually improve the bike to be better then it was designed to be. Try doing that with your average Japanese sportbike.

[savagehenry]

"...Engineers..."

 

...are (ONLY) people who are educated to to take the most up to date "X" factors and make a BEST GUESS"

 

I am a tool and die maker, and see great ideas based in sound theory (as I see it) NOT work because there is SO many factors to take into account. And CHANGES bring OTHER changes. The world is bigger than ALL of us, and has infinate detail.

 

Business generally does not piss MONEY ( the BOTTOM LINE in any company that continues operating, as Moto Guzzi DOES, so far...) on MORE work, MORE material and MORE TIME (where the BIG MONEY comes in) designing their product if it showed NO improvement. And the "numbers" at Moto Guzzi are bound to show that the cross over did improve the much dicussed "torque dip". The ACTUAL numbers may be so small as to mean NOTHING in your real world riding experiance, (OH, GOLLY, LET"S RACE OUR DYNO'S!!)

 

I have also battled Quality Control Inspecters on the effect of splitting hairs on a measurement of .0002", when we have already positively proven that .005" will work perfectly for our application. Numbers ARE numbers, after all.

 

If this were my situation, I would either put on the new pipes, or more simply, cap off the cross over stubs with a easy temporary solution, and see if I (repeat "I") noticed ANY difference. After that, who cares what the numbers say. Can't REALLY tell right away? Flip back and forth till you are happy. You will become more intimate ( READ: very good, and as a side note, knowledgeable in general) with your bike in the process. All of the other's opinions mean squat untill YOU are convinced by the FAT smile on your face! ...Then sell the rest of the left overs here or on eBay. Later, S.H.

[gstallons]

Believe me, I'm no disciple of engineers either.If you thing engineers are working in your best interests,try changing a heater core in your car. In dealing with US made autos "someone" has spent a long time(30 yrs) putting junk under the hood trying to improve mileage and performance. In the early 80s everyone's fix was to remove ALL the pollution controls to make them run BETTER. It didn't work all of the time. I agree that everything is put on to pass emission/performance goals @ X rpm. Engineers have to secure THEIR future.If some at TERMINEX came up with a product that killed all the pests,what would they do next year for business? I would hope Italian m/cyce companies (MG) are pursuing improvements and perfection.

YES, I play with my bikes all of the time. There are things I install and things I remove. We do this ourselves to make us happy. I do not install cow magnets or clothes pins on my fuel lines,put mothballs in the fuel tank or any other TV advertised "fix".