Is this Really Needed

[BRENTTODD]

I belive engineers are just like everyone else in the world. Every now and than you find an asshole or a guy who is completly brillant. I find myself staring under the hoods of many makes of cars sometimes i says wooh thats a great idea or i say if the guy who thought this up walks through the door right now i will punch him in his head. He never does so we wish bad things on him. What i am getting at is sometimes things look good on paper but work like shit in the real life. I see it every day there is no holy bible nothing is itched in stone, if you think you have a good idea try it thats what they do. If it fails they recall it sorry we made a mistake. Hey before you know it you could find out your a god dam genius and you didnt even know it.

[JoeGuzzi]

Good reading. While I have the nice new headers I think the suggestion to remove the crossover and plug it off for a test is a great idea. May well go that way. First off I am not a "Ricky Racer" (no malace aimed at anyone named Ricky). I am more than happy to ride around grinning, well within sight of the posted speed. I do not do track days, street race, canyon carve or even push it hard enough to get an oil light to flicker. After all I have been quite happy with the performance of my 1972 Eldorado for many years. What I do enjoy with the Bllabio is that it can go SO MUCH further than I am used to. This makes every ride return something new. My concern here is not MAX performance but the best long term solution to a loose leaking exhaust that makes my beauty look "Poorly Maintained" or gasp even unloved!!!

I took a pleased note when the discussion turned to engineers. I currently work as a Facilities Manager for an ammonia refrigerated warehouse. I have been an industrial manufactring mechanic my entire life. I have seen the work of too many engineers that were educated way beyond their intelligence. I know that the final product is a mix of many demands. Back to the auto heater core. Not a one designed for replacement but all designed to cost the least to include. While I know there are way more good engineers than bad I still haven't found a way to tell which one designed what I'm working on at the moment. That beinging said I would perfer the advice of the mechanics and riders who use the product daily when considering changes.

Thanks for the input, that's why I read and join these types of fourms.

 

Joe in Atlanta

1972 Eldorado

2004 Ballabio

[gstallons]

Not all people in any profession are BAD. The best "engineer" I have EVER met is a life long friend named James Mariner. he can fabricate just about ANYTHING. This man has a skimpy high school ed. He can straighten wheels, frames, con. rods, relace spoke wheels. If it is mechanical he can fix,repair,explain just about anything. If you met him he would be the most unassuming person in the room. I feel that trial and error is still a good method of improvement. This method is VERY expensive now and a person must rely on experienced results from friends when making modifications. That is why I joined this group and offer my input.

p.s. If I ever get the chance to go to any rallys close to me I hope to get the chance to talk to y'all personally.

[Guest ratchethack]

I have seen the work of too many engineers that were educated way beyond their intelligence. I know that the final product is a mix of many demands. . .

 

My concern here is not MAX performance. . .

 

. . .I would perfer the advice of the mechanics and riders who use the product daily when considering changes.

Heh, heh. . . This kinda wisdom speaks volumes. O' course you're well aware that the principle you present above will fly straight over the heads of the dreamers, the nut logs, and the posers (no reference to anyone on this thread). It may be a bit of a rarity hereabouts, Joe (as it seems to be just about everywhere else), but despite the common profusion of popular delusions, rest assured the well-substantiated truth of what you say is both recognized, and most welcome, my friend -- at least by the likes o' Yours Truly.

 

Educated beyond limits of intelligence = Far worse (and far more dangerous) than badly educated

 

Carry on!

 

-- Cdr. Hatchracket

[Dan M]

... Back to the auto heater core. Not a one designed for replacement but all designed to cost the least ....

 

Bingo.

...and weigh the least and fit into the smallest place. There are many considerations for all of this stuff. Unfortunately, the bean counters and bureaucrats weigh-in heavily. Sometimes a design is sound and the components are supplied by the lowest bidder. Now I'm not saying there isn't bad engineering out there, I've certainly seen my share of it. The time required for those heater core jobs would not be an issue if the core itself didn't fail.

Hey, if everything lasted forever or was so serviceable anyone could do it, some of us would have nothing to do.

[rocker59]

All older vehicles with dual exhaust and m/cycles like triumph had the "H" pipe on them. These exhaust "pulses" do something in this crossover .'They traditionally helped horsepower and or torque . Believe me , no unnessary parts are on motorcycles or airplanes. MG would not have that pipe on there if the engineers didn't think it wasn't needed. I would take the word of a dyno before I removed this part.

 

The number one reason you see crossovers on motorcycles is that the crossover allows both cylinders to share mufflers, thus increasing muffler volume for each cylinder. Noise emmisions are greatly reduced as a result.

 

Yes, there "can" be performance enhancements with properly tuned crossovers, but the "engineers" are looking for reduced noise emmissions and nothing else on bikes like Harley Davidson, BMW, Moto Guzzi.

 

Look at the guys who race Moto Guzzis and see how many use a 2:1 exhaust. If the factory was able to have performance at the top of the list, that's what we'd have. Unfortunately with things like EURO3 and DOT 80db standards, crossovers and huge cans are the order of the day...

[GuzziMoto]

Even Guzzi now puts 2 into 1 exhausts on their bikes now. Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

[Slavomir Musilek (R.I.P.)]

Even Guzzi now puts 2 into 1 exhausts on their bikes now. Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

 

 

you are right but compare sound of new Breva 1100 to my old V11. Same ccm, relatively same power. Which sounds more like Guzzi? Hm?

I don't like new 2-1 guzzis (except MGS)

[GuzziMoto]

Everbody has their own opinions, but to me my Griso with a two into one pipe with a right side exit muffler from RacerX looks and sounds perfect. It has a more aggressive snarl then your twin pipe setup but I like that.

[Tom M]

you are right but compare sound of new Breva 1100 to my old V11. Same ccm, relatively same power. Which sounds more like Guzzi? Hm?

I don't like new 2-1 guzzis (except MGS)

 

The newer Guzzis with 2-1 exhaust have catalytic converters. Wouldn't the cats strangle the sound a bit compared to the old V11s?

[Slavomir Musilek (R.I.P.)]

The newer Guzzis with 2-1 exhaust have catalytic converters. Wouldn't the cats strangle the sound a bit compared to the old V11s?

 

 

Sure they will, but not too much I'd say...

 

maybe it is just because, my point of view is, bike has to have one round light, two valves, and one muffler on each side

[Admin Jaap]

The OEM sound of the 1200 Sport is very nice and dark. I don't know how they got it through inspection...

[dlaing]

I thought the later model front crossover was introduced to remedy the infamous 4000 rpm flat spot (or torque dip).

 

Do these later motors have less of a torque dip in stock form on the dyno?

The dyno graphs that have been posted on this forum indicated that the bikes with the front crossover have less dip, when completely stock.

Yes, there could be other reasons for this like the alleged higher compression, but my money is on crossovers smoothing out the hole.

There are other ways to smooth out the hole. You could get a QuatD, a Stucchi crossover or a Mistral crossover.

Once you do, the benefits that the Guzzi engineers very likely obtained through the front crossover, may very well be gone.

IMHO the Guzzi engineers got it right, if the objective is no hole in the torque curve, decent power, and legal pollution(mostly noise) emissions.

Once you put on an aftermarket crossover the benefits may very well be gone.

[Tom M]

The dyno graphs that have been posted on this forum indicated that the bikes with the front crossover have less dip, when completely stock.

Yes, there could be other reasons for this like the alleged higher compression, but my money is on crossovers smoothing out the hole.

There are other ways to smooth out the hole. You could get a QuatD, a Stucchi crossover or a Mistral crossover.

Once you do, the benefits that the Guzzi engineers very likely obtained through the front crossover, may very well be gone.

IMHO the Guzzi engineers got it right, if the objective is no hole in the torque curve, decent power, and legal pollution(mostly noise) emissions.

Once you put on an aftermarket crossover the benefits may very well be gone.

 

FWIW the former owner of my '02 (with Ti ECU/exhaust) mostly eliminated the 4k rpm torque dip by adding a PCIII and getting a custom map done. I have his before & after dyno charts that show this. It's possible that the 03-04 V11's didn't have the dip because of a better map from the factory along with the new crossover.

[GuzziMoto]

The newer Guzzis with 2-1 exhaust have catalytic converters. Wouldn't the cats strangle the sound a bit compared to the old V11s?

A cat does act as a muffler to some extent. So does a two into one collector. But the cat for my Griso is inside the stock muffler which is sitting in my shed. Some bikes have the cat in the collector, which means you must replace the collector to remove the cat, but I see little reward for doing so on a streetbike. To each there own. Cats are coming. Soon they will be on all bikes. Either keep fighting it or get used to it. Take your pick. Time marches on. I just prefer the sound of a twin with a two into one exhaust. It has a small block chevy, pissed off kind of sound. Buells also have a great sound,much better then the sportsters with their dual exhausts. Aprilia RSV's also sound great.

And the look of my Griso with the single sided swing arm and the pipe on the right side so that the left side is open and the wheel is just floating there, I love it.