More pony's please

[GuzziMoto]

Pete seems to have a decent grasp on the power thing. If you want more out of your Guzzi, focus on improving the things the factory did poorly in the first place. Squish and port shape/blending are easy things to improve that do not effect reliability and can make a significant improvement in the output of a Guzzi motor since they were not done well from the factory. If you are happy with the output of your Guzzi motor as it is stock, then save yourself the time and money of those mods. But for crying out loud, someone please make those two quit going at it.

[Dan M]

But for crying out loud, someone please make those two quit going at it.

 

You're it. No you're it. No, you're it. No, you're it. No, you're it.... Mom! he won't leave me alone! "Boys, play nice!"

Right about now is when Jaap will come in and pull the plug on this game of tag.

[Guest drknow]

We need a special thread for dlaing and ratchet. They can beat each other up for hours, and when we feel the need to poke ourselves in the eye with a sharp stick, we can just head over there get a dose!

[Guest ratchethack]

OK, OK already. I got the message.

 

But you gotta admit the YouTube A/V was pretty funny and not bad for a comeback, not to mention inspirational!

 

Somewhere. . .

 

It's made me hungry just watching it. Where can I get some pork ribs. And a great big bowl o' poi. . .

 

And where's my ukelele?

 

Aloha!

 

EDIT: I meant no disrespect wotsoever to the memory of Israel Kamakawiwo'ole, aka "Bruddah IZ". It was evidently his ashes that were offered to the gods in the YouTube A/V about 11 years back. RIP. Big boy = whole lotta ashes.

[polebridge]

It's an experience I don't own a Hi-Cam but a good 'Tona will crack the 100HP barrier if not with ease then with some sensible work, mainly tuning the FI. It should be remembered though that is is still a big, heavy, crude, long wheelbase mororbike. If you wants *Fast* there are any number of bikes that will do that much *better* than the 'Tona but it FEELS ike I think a motorbike should feel and it has a real "You f@ck with me and I'll kill you!" attitude that makes you feel like a man, even if you are, like me, a mouse studying to become a rat .

 

I'm hoping that my Griso 8V will offer the same sort of visceral punch, it's essentially a very similar engine in most ways to the earlier Hi-Cam. Thing is that the nice people at Piagio will probably of sanitized and Honda-ized it so that it will appeal to yer aveage BMW owner. S'not really an issue though as making it uncivilized will probably be a lot easier than making it civilized. There has to be *more* to get out of the 8V as its what Guzzi have pinned their hopes on for the next few years. I just hope that someone can convince the Piagio drones if they made a Nuovo LeMans it wouldn't steal sales from Aprilia but it might get some riders off other mounts like the Bimmer twins.

 

I'm told that the filthy scow with the first shipment of 8V's has docked in Sydney so I hope to be able to join BFG soon in a festival of gurning at my new steed and trying to work out what does what and what's going to go wrong before it has a chance to

 

Pete

Pete,

 

The Griso 8v is on my short list too. Let me know how it compares, 'feel' wise, to the V11. I seem to remember reading on another post that you currently have a standard Griso. If so, how does this one compare to the V11? Which do you prefer? Just curious as someday I will probably want to own another Guzzi and I really like my Coppa.

 

Mike

[JFK]

Ratch? Dave? We know you don't like each other but do you have to carry on like such a pair of pantomime Queens? .

 

At the end of the day everyone thinks they want more power. That's fine. I don't doubt it for a minute but just so that people can do a bit of extrapolating on what is involved in chasing power out of what is essentially a ditchpump motor.

 

Probably about 15 years ago now I did just about everything I could, using well proven mods from world reknowned Guzzi tuners and a few ideas of my own, to build my idea of the ultimate Guzzi Hot-rod. BAck in the early eighties I had the good fortune to get a ride on one of Amadeo Castellanis short stroke bikes. It was a peach. Ever since that time I'd wanted to build something similar.

 

To cut a LONG story short it was very, very expensive. Not just the parts but the time, the machining etc.etc. The end result was a comparatively tractable bike that made 84 RWBHP (IMHO optimistic as most Dynos are.) out of 891cc @9,750RPM.

 

I rode it hard. Very hard. It was fun.

 

Big end shells lasted in the region of 20-30 hours.

 

Every 2nd or third set of shells the rods needed re-sizing. If I'd had them done again I would of had to buy new rods, (Carrilos, especially 'Special Order' ones aren't cheap.)

 

Pistons? Ah, shit! Why go into detail. Essentially I had to throw away very expensive parts VERY OFTEN to get that sort of performance. Our race bike has over 100cc more, produces much the same power and is more reliable! And the clincher is that my Griso produces only a bit less, ( A decently set up V11 will produce much the same!) but I NEVER HAVE TO DO ANYTHING TO IT! How good is that!

 

I'm sure I've said it before but by far the best money you can spend is on suspension and set up. After that? Yes, there are a host of things you can do to make the bike a bit more powerful and a LOT more enjoyable. Jon Margrave's (Guzzi Jon.) LeMans {RIP} is a fine example of this. It was simply set up well and worked splendidly. I only wish I'd had a chance to ride it before it had been trowelled.

 

Yes, in standard bore/stroke form the V11 has a staggering 78cc more than our race bike and 179(?)cc more than my little hot rod but the architechture remains the same apart from an inferior bore/stroke ratio and a much longer stroke on the V11. 100HP/ litre has for a very, very long time been seen as the realistic limit of output from an air cooled 2V twin of any configuration. Sure you can get more but you start moving into the area of very limited service life of expensive componentry and the laws of diminishing returns start reaching the upper end of the parabola.

 

I still reckon that what many people want when they say they want 'More Power' is essentially greater tractability, especially in the area between about 5,000 and 7,000RPM and the ability to not be faster but *quicker*. Best way to achieve that as a first step is to make sure both wheels are on the ground ALL the time. Second step is to optimise the actual *Bits* you have by correct set up, (And this can involve something like a My15M or a Power Commander or whatever but try just setting up the stock ECU properly first. I'm amazed by how many are really, really bad!).

 

Next on the list is, as Skeeve says, the heads. Just clean the por things up! This is a MASS PRODUCED product! You can make huge improvements by simply matching stuff up so it actually FITS TOGETHER like it should! Then you can look at pistons and squish in conjunction with a cam, (Although to cam up a V11 will produce greatly accelerated wear in the guides and followers.). When you do that you'll have to re-map it again.

 

After that you can start doing all the fancy stuff if your pockets are deep enough.

 

Alternatively you can buy a 2 year old R6, stick some race-glass on it, set up the suspension, change the oil and buy a set of slicks and a day pass for a track day once a month or so and go flog the bollocks off it and enjoy your V11 for what it is on the road. The R6 option will be a LOT cheaper than trying to get the mythical 100 ponies out of the ditchpump, especially if you want *reliability* (Term used advisedly!) thrown in.

 

By all means modify the f@ck out of your V11's and chase horsepower! Stick a sodding blower on 'em if you want and can afford it! It'd be fun, (But I'd be the one in the suit of medieval armour cowering around the corner carrying a dustbin lid to deflect the frag when you wick the bugger up on the rollers! ) Just don't expect it to be either easy or cheap! It certainly won't be something you'd want to ride to work or the local tiddly-winks tournament

 

Pete

 

 

Pete, looks like I might have found someone with the right philosophy to work on my Guz'...

 

JFK

[dlaing]

The way I got to be as old and fat as I am is by being extremely cautious. If you'd ever seen a motor come apart while being tested you'd appreciate why I'd be hiding round a corner in the armour. I knew people who've been killed when motors let go on the bench and these were clever people who just made one stupid mistake and it cost them their lives. You perhaps don't realize exactly how much energy there is stored in a connecting rod when the engine is working at full noise, never mind the flywheel. That sucker will cut you clean in two if it shears off just like a circular saw blade. While these things are 'Toys' they are bloody dangerous toys. Trifle with them as you like but believe me someone will end up crying. There is a huge difference between calculated risk and arrogant hubris. If you see my statement as cowardice? So be it. I can still sleep well at night.

So, you'd be cowering behind a steel drum while standing in the pits as Guareschi revs his 165HP MGS01?

Somehow I imagine you are more daring than that.

[dlaing]

So now I pass it along to you – just a little something that could help free your mind from all Earthly concerns whenever some mean earthling looks at you funny when you let it slip that you actually believe your V11 Hayabusa Eater is real, or when some nasty, narrow minded earthling laughs when you say that a V11 can perform with any Hyperbike on just about any road.

Close, but again misleading.

When you said that a V11 can't built up so that it can keep up with hyperbikes, I said that it could keep up if the V11 can get a 120-165HP Big Bore Engine kit, carbon fiber wheels, ceramic brake rotor, Ohlins SuperBike suspension, a lightened monoposto rear subframe, and the best DOT approved tires money can buy.

What does "keeping up with" mean?

Almost all the V11s on this forum have kept up with hyperbikes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Heck I have even passed a couple!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The above Guzzi setup could keep up with a STOCK 2007 or earlier completely stock Hayabusa on many roads, with equal riders, even of extraordinary talent.

Riders of my talent can't benefit by all that the quickest bikes can offer.

By stock, I mean off the show room floor. OEM tires. OEM springs. etc. Heavier riders will suffer even more on the stock Hayabusa springs.

Here is a quote from a forum member at Hayabusa.org

...the front suspension on the Busa sux...as not only is the overall usable fork travel shorter than what's on RR type sprtbikes?..but according to the static sag numbers it's also sprung far to soft...for anyone..

If you think that my fantasy Guzzi can't keep up with a bike with suspension like that you are definitely "somewhere over the rainbow"

There is nothing untrue about what I have said but you rant on as if the words were untrue, and I keep having to defend my statements.

 

I have no disagreement that there is evidence that it would be unwise to spend 50 or 100 thousand dollars building up the bike, nor do I disagree that building up the bike could decrease the durability.

Also, I believe that a well modified Hayabusa, could be designed to be faster AND OR quicker than Guareschi's MGS01 on most roads.

 

When I win the Lotto I'll prove it all to you, but you will still be in denial of the obvious truth.

[pete roper]

So, you'd be cowering behind a steel drum while standing in the pits as Guareschi revs his 165HP MGS01?

Somehow I imagine you are more daring than that.

 

 

Dave, the MGS-01 is a full blown race bike. Firstly, I doubt very much if it makes anywhere near that power. Secondly even the *stock* out-of-the-crate MGS-01 has service requirements that would make anybody less than a very well financed race team shudder!

 

I remember a few years ago there was an upsurge of interest in the idea of Titanium con rods on either this site or one of the others. I gave a link to the Arrow racing site which lists the service intervals for Titanium con rods, which they make and sell. I think the gist of it was.

 

New rods. Run them in practice. If they seem OK run them in race. If you have any doubts disassemble the engine and re-size or replace as neccessary. After race? Throw them away and fit new set.

 

I seem to remember that this, about 4 or so years ago, would cost you approximately $6,000 a weekends ride in parts alone! Talk about a thread killer!

 

The MGS-01 may not have requirements quite that high but they're up there. The super-tuned bike ridden by Guareschi is a wonderful thing and a great statement as well as being mind bogglingly fast but believe me it has NOTHING in common with a V11 or even much in common with a stock MGS-01 really and you really, really wouldn't want to ride it on the street.

 

Not that a lowlife like me would ever get to sully the its of a big team like theirs I have to admit I'd still be bloody nervous. Not as nervous as I would be if I was strapped to a pole in the room with the test bench in it that they'd use for development work while they sat outside and revved the tits off it on the brake. I'd be the only one there. all the developers and engineers would be in another room wacthing it either on a video screen or through a slit in a steel wall with a bulletproof glass plate over the slit. all the information they needed would come down cables to computers, they don't need to be in there waiting for bits of metal to start flying around before they run!

 

pete

[mike wilson]

I remember a few years ago there was an upsurge of interest in the idea of Titanium con rods on either this site or one of the others. I gave a link to the Arrow racing site which lists the service intervals for Titanium con rods, which they make and sell. I think the gist of it was.

 

New rods. Run them in practice. If they seem OK run them in race. If you have any doubts disassemble the engine and re-size or replace as neccessary. After race? Throw them away and fit new set.

 

I seem to remember that this, about 4 or so years ago, would cost you approximately $6,000 a weekends ride in parts alone! Talk about a thread killer!

 

I had an acquaintance who had the magnificently deranged idea of buying an old F1 engine and fitting it into his Marina. His logic was that this engine could last two hours at 200mph. As forces increase exponentially with revs (his sole, incorrectly applied, known fact) the engine should last some hundreds of thousands of miles suitably restricted to less than 70mph. Despite my best attempts to disabuse him, it was only when he saw the prices the engines were getting to be turned into coffee table ornaments that he gave up.

 

There's no helping some people.

[GuzziMoto]

Your friend was not entirely wrong but he was wrong. Use of an engine will greatly influence service life. But F1 stuff is so far out on the edge that I don't think it would have worked. But as an example, the old Hart V10 F1 engine was retired to become an endurance motor mainly be restricting revs. So it could be done.

As far as Ti rods, the early ones had short service intervals. They have gotten better now.The Ti rods in our Ducati 996 could last a whole season.

The MGS01s service intervals are no doubt in large part influenced by the bikes intended use. And using one on the street should see more longevity out of it. The same thing applies to Aprilias 450 and 550 v-twins. The service intervals are way high but that is because the bikes are built for race use and people who ride them on the street get much more life out of them. Still, it is not going to be as reliable as a V11. But I want one anyway.

[dlaing]

Dave, the MGS-01 is a full blown race bike. Firstly, I doubt very much if it makes anywhere near that power. Secondly even the *stock* out-of-the-crate MGS-01 has service requirements that would make anybody less than a very well financed race team shudder!

I have little doubt that it does make that kind of power.

But I guess we will never know for sure.

Yah the service requirements makes me shudder too.

I would definitely go with the lower power options on the Big Bore kit.

And the way I ride the service interval might not be too bad.

[macguzzi]

Please stop, the horses bolted