More pony's please

[Dan M]

All right, all right, lets get back on point here.

 

Al, your bike has the usual mods and good ones at that. It seems at this point your map should be optimized for best running. If you want to do a little more I'd suggest Mike Rich pistons. I had pretty close to the same mods as your bike (although different brands) and the bike ran much better than stock. Probably not much more power but certainly far better. I added the pistons and felt a noticeable difference. Again, the map has to be correct. All the mods in the world are useless if the fueling is wrong.

 

I think the side point here is, (and really shouldn't get anybodies panties in a bunch) if a person doesn't know much about such things, they can easily get over their heads making modifications. I've seen "professionals" modify without a plan and wind up with motors that run like crap and sometimes make less power than when they started. To put it out there that you can just bolt things on and the bike will perform is not only not accurate but it's not in anyones best interest. Some people come here for advice. I think both sides should be put out there and let the person seeking the information decide for themselves. This is after all an internet forum, information shared here should be taken with a grain (or maybe a block) of salt.

[Guest ratchethack]

And Ratchet,

The examples you give would apply to most, if not all bikes.

There have been posters on this site who have simply bolted parts onto and into their bikes, remapped them, and have had success and happiness. It does happen, just like the failures happen.

It is a risk, and a pricey one sometimes. I will be going down this road when I can afford it. I will be happy to tell of my failures and successes. But it will have to wait until next winter.

Cheers,

Steve

Steve, of course the examples I gave would apply to most, if not all moto's. Many on this board haven't owned and maintained many different marques, and have no basis for comparison here, and no relevant experience. I happen to be one of many more hereabouts who've owned, maintained, and yes, modified many different marques over many decades. I'm NO EXPERT, but I b'lieve I know (and certainly respect) expertise when I see it posted here! The significant difference with modifying V11 Guzzis for MORE POWER is one of degree, as Pete has been pointing out for years. I believe this point routinely gets WILLFULLY ignored, and that difference (again) is this, if I may be allowed to paraphrase the Maestro:

The V11 Guzzi has very little incremental output left to wring out of it without running straight up against potentially serious negative consequences for the average V11 rider.

Let me further suggest that many other kinds of bikes can be far more successfully exploited for far greater incremental output with far more significant results, at far lower costs in terms of time and money, with far lower risks, and with far less significant trade-offs to consider.

 

Of course there are countless examples of V11 "upgrades" that have been and continue to be successfully installed on v11's with a re-map with no adverse effects! I've done several myself, very successfully so, and I've never suggested that leaving it alone is some kind of Holy Grail, either!

 

But for those who seem to be so powerfully captivated by the age-old wishful thinking of achievment of some mythical state of 'happiness' by chasing EVER MORE POWER on dyno charts on a V11, casting caution to the wind -- and make no mistake, we have the typical profoundly vocal contingent of 'em here offering endless encouragement without a lick of relevant experience or any basis for such encouragement (nor offsetting balance of common sense) wotsoever! -- I submit to you that this tends to encourage unsuspecting newbs down a rough road that OFTEN breaks down in a mire of disappointment -- far more often than would EVER be likely to be reported on Web boards such as this!

 

Many modifications are NOT the simple "bolt-on" variety, and ARE NOT easily reversed without relatively large expenditures of time and money. It can be (and often has been) a slippery slope. The phrase, "Can't afford to throw good money after bad." is one of the saddest and yet most common things I've heard over the years. I've heard it many times, up close and personal -- only a few of which I've noted above. Oh, yes, there are countless more where they came from! All I'm saying is that understanding very clearly how to balance the benefits against the risks before taking a major plunge is always your best hedge against disappointment, yet surprisingly few ever do their homework. The GOOD NEWS is that ample relevant knowledge is fairly often offered here by those with the leading expertise on the planet -- regardless of how often it's completely ignored!

 

Seems to me that before chasing MORE POWER, if one simply, and with all honesty, asked himself the question, "What margin of personal happiness do I actually expect to achieve by making this expensive and time-consuming modification (easily reversible or not) by lifting the power peak on the dyno at WOT by 3%, 5%, or whatever?" -- that more people would find more reasonable, more satisfying, and MORE FUN places to spend time and money, without any need to be concerned about risk mitigation and downside, without winding up with needless disappointment, and without needlessly presenting a negative image of Guzzis to others in the process.

 

Al, I apologize if anything I said was offensive to you. This was not my intent. I had spelled this out quite clearly in my opener when I posted, "Well Al, this isn't a personal attack, my friend, and I don't intend to single you out", and when I pointed out up front that IF you're a graduate of the ever-popular, ever-expanding, "more is better" school of unlimited power on tap with no risk or downside, you may want to re-think things by further understanding the risks and trade-offs before taking the next step. I hope I've accomplished this here, even if it wasn't what you wanted to hear. Believe it or not, my friend, you may thank me some day for offering wot appears to be one of the precious few voices of caution hereabouts.

 

The classifieds are running evidence of wot often happens when WILLFUL IGNORANCE (aka denial) teams up with naivety to trump knowledge and experience, and a once-reliable moto is eventually towed away on a trailer for pennies on the dollar, under the familiar heavy cloak of sadness, regret, and yes, resentment. It's not a pretty picture (at least to Yours Truly), you'll NEVER see the likes of this posted here, yet it happens every day. I've given you two examples from my own back yard. The woods 'r full of 'em.

 

-- Cdr. Hatchracket, Popular Delusion Exterminator Squadron

[Tom M]

And if you ever decide to put Fast By Ferracci 11:1 pistons in your bike and you don't like them, I WILL BUY THEM from you and give you my stockers!

 

Attention Steve; FBF pistons on ebay

[ALdad]

Oh my knickers are in such a twist! All I wanted to know is if what I have done matches the Dyno #s. I love you guys....In a manly way of course.

[macguzzi]

Neeeah

[GuzziMoto]

The V11 Guzzi has very little incremental output left to wring out of it without running straight up against potentially serious negative consequences for the average V11 rider.

 

-- Cdr. Hatchracket, Popular Delusion Exterminator Squadron

I'm not sure what you consider "incremental", But after doing all the basic stuff(louder cans, PC w/custom map, etc.) I ported the heads(actually, someone ported them for me) and decked the cylinders/skimmed the heads to improve squish and raise compression. That netted me about 10 ponies over where I was at with the basics done. That's more then a 10 percent increase. Huge improvement. And we're not talking about adding power at peak and losing power in the mid range. The increase was across the board. I realize Those mods are not for everyone, and the improvements may be "incremental" to some, but I(and my wife, it's her bike) are very happy.

[Guest ratchethack]

the improvements may be "incremental" to some, . . .more then a 10 percent increase. Huge improvement.

. . .I(and my wife, it's her bike) are very happy.

Truly, thy cup runneth over in great abundance, GMOTO.

 

I'm always sincerely pleased to hear news of such happiness as this. May it spread and flourish throughout the land forevermore.

 

No doubt each ride since the modifications has been at least 10% happier than formerly possible.

 

Just curious. It doesn't seem like you've hit a point of diminishing returns yet on the cost/happiness scale. Why stop at +10% very happy? Why not take it to +20%, to at least double the added happiness?

 

-- Come to think of it, how do you know when you're "happy enough" with the amount of power you have on tap at the moment?? Is there some kinda orgasmic transcendental astral projection experience that goes along with?!?! Otherwise, how d'you ever know when to stop plumbing for MORE POWER -- or is it one of those things where you actually never get there, and all the happiness is in the constant striving, yet never arriving?? Isn't that some kind of a great walloping tease?? Obviously this wouldn't be a concern for the wife (and no aspersions cast in the direction of the missus -- heaven forfend!), but can you get the infamous huevos azul from this?!

 

Enquiring minds. . .(well, you know).

 

Now I fully recognize that with many riders this is simply not possible, because they ride with their throttles pegged at WOT most of the time (if not all the time) on the road, balls out, hair on fire, and for all I know your wife may well be the perfect exemplar. But as for myself, riding at less than full throttle virtually all the time, (yet often up to ~7-8K RPM up thru the gears when accelerating) without many significant mods a-tall, whenever I want 10% greater power (across the board), I simply crank in more throttle, and -- lo and behold! 99.99999999999% of the time -- There it is! -- With yet even more in reserve, as may be called upon (but next to never actually is).

 

I wouldn't exactly say I'm delirious with happiness over this, but I ride every day, and for the most part I manage to enjoy my riding immensely without ever hitting the end of my throttle stop. Now this is just me, but this tells me that for the most part, I'm already not lacking for more than all the power I can honestly make use of.

 

But o' course, that's just me, and I'm merely a Road Geez.

[RacerX]

What am I missing ,and who in SoCal could get me the extra getty up!!

Ah, I know nothing about getting power out of the 2V Guzzi

 

What you had a hard time keeping up with my little ol' Jackal, eh?

I highly recommend reading this; http://www.guzzitech.com/JTsRosso-John_T.html and then Pt. II.

 

This has been talked about ad infinitum here.

 

I am not a big fan of high-comp pistons on a street-ridden air-cooled engine. The best bang-for-the-buck is head work, and simple intake/exhaust mods. Going way back to Manfred Hecht days... it's well proven theory that without spending mucho dinero on the 2V motor, or rev'ing it out to 10k+ rpm, the best of the best motors will get between 90-95 rwhp. John T's words & dyno charts prove this.

 

ALdad, when you're ready for go fast, let me know.

[ALdad]

Ah, I know nothing about getting power out of the 2V Guzzi

 

What you had a hard time keeping up with my little ol' Jackal, eh?

I highly recommend reading this; http://www.guzzitech.com/JTsRosso-John_T.html and then Pt. II.

 

This has been talked about ad infinitum here.

 

I am not a big fan of high-comp pistons on a street-ridden air-cooled engine. The best bang-for-the-buck is head work, and simple intake/exhaust mods. Going way back to Manfred Hecht days... it's well proven theory that without spending mucho dinero on the 2V motor, or rev'ing it out to 10k+ rpm, the best of the best motors will get between 90-95 rwhp. John T's words & dyno charts prove this.

 

ALdad, when you're ready for go fast, let me know.

I don't think any amount of Hp would let me get even close to keeping up with your Jackel. It might be more than the bike. What I really need right now is a local seat guy. But thats another topic. Rachet no offence taken,I always welcome advice from anybody with more experiance then me.

[dlaing]

... without many significant mods a-tall, whenever I want 10% greater power (across the board), I simply crank in more throttle, and -- lo and behold! 99.99999999999% of the time -- There it is! -- With yet even more in reserve, as may be called upon (but next to never actually is).

Hey Commodore Road Geeze,

What HP numbers give you that "kinda orgasmic transcendental astral projection experience"?

I submit that if you're a graduate of the "less is better" school, (the school taught by old man living on mountain tops and Professors of Eastern religions), you've purchased the wrong motorcycle.

Maybe you should get a Ural or a Honda Rebel???

[FuelCooler]

Attention Steve; FBF pistons on ebay

 

Damn it!!!

I didn't mention them on purpose.

They are already up to $247.00 with a day to go!!!!

Still a good deal if they go for less than $300.

We will see...but right now I have other mysterious deals I am working on.

Thanks for looking out for me though

Cheers,

Steve

[dlaing]

More studies in parallax....

Did FBF change the shape to improve squish and or flame front?

Assuming compression ratio remains the same, it looks like the squish area may be closer to the head, for improved squish at the outer perimeter in a "drop in" solution, so less need to mill the heads or cylinder.

Of course if the compression ratio is less than before the squish may be worse, but the flame front may be improved.

Still very different than the Mike Rich approach of filling in the squish area at about 1cm from the perimeter.

 

Old image above compared to new image below

[Guest ratchethack]

Hey Commodore Road Geeze,

What HP numbers give you that "kinda orgasmic transcendental astral projection experience"?

I submit that if you're a graduate of the "less is better" school, (the school taught by old man living on mountain tops and Professors of Eastern religions), you've purchased the wrong motorcycle.

Maybe you should get a Ural or a Honda Rebel???

Hey look who woke up and joined the party. Splendid! Y'all gather 'round and pull up a chair. Now that the extreme fantasy end of the fantasy/reality continuum is represented directly here, let the REAL fun begin!

 

Um, Dave. Lemme see if I've got this straight. You now seem to be suggesting that I've purchased the wrong motorcycle, based on my consistent recommendation over many years that riders enjoy the V11 for WHAT IT IS, as designed and built -- as opposed to wot it isn't, never has been, and wot it never can be??!!

 

Ever holding up the most dewey-eyed, naive and dreamiest of blue-sky wishful thinking as if it were something approaching earthbound reality as you so consistently do here, Dave, as I recall, you've suggested (and without joking, at that! ) the endless joys and eternal wisdom of REPLACING the following list (see below) of V11 components with HIGH PERFORMANCE non-V11 alternatives of titanium, ceramic, carbon fiber, and even sorbothane. On top o' this, you've proposed an endless slew of high-bling replacement gear on your dreamy dreamland way to wot you’ve touted as something you very evidently believe actually exists in measurable earthly dimensions that would actually be solid enough in material form to reflect light from our sun in our own atmosphere here on Earth. Presumably, such a thing would actually show up in photo’s – at least as well as hundreds of UFOs seem to -- though it seems that no camera has actually yet captured a single example. Not a one?!?! I refer, of course, to your fanciful fabrication of the now infamous V11 Hayabusa Eater (your concept, your term).

 

I’m sure I’ve left at least half a slew of stuff out. Please feel free to add to the list. I’m positive you could double it.

 

Dave’s recommended "V11 Hayabusa Eater" component replacement list:

 

fork

shock (as far as I know, these first 2 are as far as you’ve got to date on your own V11?)

wheels

wheel bearings

wheel spacers

spindles

throttle bodies

air box

cush drive

bevel drive

rear subframe

all fasteners

spine frame

swingarm

engine (I b’lieve the Big Bore replacement motor, which contains NO V11 parts, should get special note!)

exhaust system

handlebars

brakes

electrics (all, I b'lieve?)

brake levers

seat

 

Now please do correct me if I'm wrong, Dave, but if you'd actually followed your own endlessly chirpy speculations on the boundless wonders, fathomless joys, and infinite wisdom of performance replacements on your entire list -- on your own V11, I reckon the only major component you’d have left that came from Mandello is the gearbox -- and correct me if I'm wrong (Part II), but hadn't you at one point also dreamed up the "wisdom" of replacing the steel gearsets, main and coutershafts with titanium bits??

 

So leaving your question of my choice of motorcycle aside for a moment, one which I continue to be pleased enough with not to have replaced more than a few relatively minor items without much've any further such plans -- in your own case, assuming you’ll eventually follow your own endlessly professed. . . er, wisdom, wouldn't it just be a whole lot simpler, smarter, and more economical for you to've NEVER PURCHASED A GUZZI IN THE FIRST PLACE??!!

 

Why, you could've picked up a gearbox case somewhere and built wot you've been recommending for years on this Forum around that -- without the bother of selling off a complete V11 (minus a gearbox case) piece by piece on Ebay!

 

I reckon there wouldn't be anywhere near enough Guzzi left in your stupendous creation, by any stretch of honesty, to call it a Guzzi, let alone a V11. Why, that'd be nothing but sheer silliness, wouldn't it? But you could call it something like the Dlaing Ding-a-ling Bling Thing – and I reckon it’d be both an accurate, and fairly self-explanatory handle.

 

Now wot was your latest nonsense above about me having purchased the wrong motorcycle, Dave?

 

I’ve always found it fascinating to observe that if you provide the wildly unbounded speculator the tools to actually attempt to transform his most vivid hallucinations into realities, he’ll dig himself as deep as raw, unbounded speculation will take him. With predictable results.

 

OOOOOOOOOOOOPSIE!

[dlaing]

Hey Commodore Road Geeze,

What HP numbers give you that "kinda orgasmic transcendental astral projection experience"?

He isn't going to answer, is he?

[GuzziMoto]

So what you're saying Ratchet, is that it's okay for you to suggest that someone who subscribes to the more is better theory may have bought the wrong motorcycle. But if someone suggests that if you subscibe to the less is better theory they may have bought the wrong motorcycle, that's uncalled for?

And as far as my(and my wifes) happiness goes, it's much like your owns. Except that we appear to prefer a motorcycle with more power and responsiveness(particularly the responsiveness part). Lucky for us Guzzi makes a bike that with a few simple(at least to us, might be over your head) mods fits the bill perfectly.