More pony's please

[dlaing]

Hey look who woke up and joined the party. Splendid! Y'all gather around and pull up a chair. Now that the extreme fantasy end of the fantasy/reality continuum is represented directly here, let the REAL fun begin!

 

Um, Dave. Lemme see if I've got this straight. You now seem to be suggesting that I've purchased the wrong motorcycle, based on my consistent recommendation over many years for enjoyment of the V11 for WHAT IT IS, as designed and built -- as opposed to what it isn't, and wot it never can be??

 

Ever holding up the most dewey-eyed and dreamy of blue-sky wishful thinking as if it were something approaching earthbound reality, it seems to me you've consistently suggested (and without joking! ) the endless joys of REPLACING the following list (see below) of V11 components with HIGH PERFORMANCE non-V11 alternatives of titanium, ceramic, carbon fiber, and even sorbothane , along with a slew of high-bling replacement gear on your dreamland way to wot you’ve touted as something you very evidently believe actually exists in measurable earthly dimensions that reflect light from our sun in our own atmosphere here on Earth, and would actually show up in photo’s – though it seems that no photo’s have actually yet captured such a thing. I refer, of course, to your fanciful fabrication of the V11 Hayabusa Eater (your concept, your term).

 

I’m sure I’ve left a whole slew of stuff out. Please feel free to add to the list. I’m sure you could at least double it.

 

Dave’s recommended V11 HIGH PERFORMANCE component replacement list:

 

fork

shock (as far as I know, these first 2 are as far as you’ve got to date on your own V11?)

wheels

wheel bearings

wheel spacers

spindles

throttle bodies

cush drive

rear subframe

all fasteners

spine frame

swingarm

engine (I b’lieve the Big Bore replacement motor, which contains NO V11 parts, should get special note!)

exhaust system

handlebars

brakes

electrics

brake levers

seat

 

Now please do correct me if I'm wrong, Dave, but if you'd actually followed your own endlessly chirpy speculation on the boundless wonder and joy of performance replacements on your entire list, I reckon the only major component you’d have left that came from Mandello is the gearbox.

 

In your own case, assuming you’ll eventually follow your own endlessly spouted. . . er, wisdom, wouldn't it just be a whole lot simpler, smarter, and more economical for you to've picked up a gearbox somewhere and assembled wot you've been recommending for years on this Forum around that? I reckon there wouldn't be anywhere near enough Guzzi left in it to be able to actually call it a Guzzi, let alone a V11. But you could call it something like the Dlaing Ding A-ling Bling Thing – and I reckon it’d be fairly self-explanatory.

 

Now wot was your latest nonsense above about me having purchased the wrong motorcycle, Dave?

 

I’ve always been fascinated to observe that if you give the wildly unbounded speculator the tools to actually achieve his dreams, he’ll dig himself as deep as raw, unbounded speculation will take him. With predictable results.

For your information buddy, my signature is not a wish list....

fork switched to Ohlins...simply awesome!

shock Penske....also, awesome!

wheels....too expensive at this point.

wheel bearings...all replaced with SKF before I knew about the ceramic bearings.

wheel spacers...replaced with much lighter than stock alloy, and so far the bearings are holding up dandy against them, while the stock bearings were not.

spindles...front is a hollow axle to match the Ohlins, lighter and more rigid, works grrrreat!

throttle bodies....did I ever suggest that? At one point I certainly wondered if carbs would be better.

cush drive...I drilled some of the rubbers at your advice and noticed no difference.

rear subframe....I need to take a welding class

all fasteners...Anyone know where to get a titanium rear axle?

spine frame...I am pretty content with it, but it could use some bracing. No doubt the Ghezzi-Brian has a better frame.

swingarm.... I really like what Paul M. did!!!! But no way am I that ambitious.

engine (I b’lieve the Big Bore replacement motor, which contains NO V11 parts, should get special note!)...show me the money, and I'll order it.

exhaust system....I want to make something like the Quat-D but with dual outlets, but I am lacking the ambition as the Mistrals work well enough for now.

handlebars...Convertibars with longer brake lines for more rise.

brakes...four pad brembos up front....much nicer, but I need better rotors to take full advantage.

electrics...electrexUSA regulator, Odyssey battery, GEI relays, relays for headlight. All fine improvements!

brake levers.... Pazzo. Give about a millimeter more draw, but mostly there because they look nice and stock needed replacement.

seat....Corbin, doubles comfort range, but I slide to far forward when braking, going down hill, etc. Redoing the rear subframe might be the solution, of visiting Corbin for a custom fitting....

 

What have you done to your bike.

I'll give you $300 for your Stucchi cross-over. What a mistake it must of been for you to waste hundreds of dollars only to obtain a few ponies in the mid-range and a few dbs to annoy your neigbors.

Please sell it to me!!!

What other mods did you do?

Knee pads on the gas tank.

Wilbers shock.

Throttle wheel to ease the stress on your weak wrist.

What else?

[Skeeve]

...

rear subframe....I need to take a welding class

...

spine frame...I am pretty content with it, but it could use some bracing. No doubt the Ghezzi-Brian has a better frame.

...

engine (I b’lieve the Big Bore replacement motor, which contains NO V11 parts, should get special note!)...show me the money, and I'll order it.

exhaust system....I want to make something like the Quat-D but with dual outlets, but I am lacking the ambition as the Mistrals work well enough for now.

...

seat....Corbin, doubles comfort range, but I slide to far forward when braking, going down hill, etc. Redoing the rear subframe might be the solution, of visiting Corbin for a custom fitting....

..

['Ratch's bike]

Throttle wheel to ease the stress on your weak wrist.

What else?

 

Hey Dave, I don't want to appear to be jumping on the "Let's heckle Dave" bandwagon here, but trust me, you'll need much more than a welding class to repop a different subframe! And, per my post some time past about conversations w/ Reboot spares about the actual wt. of the various frame parts, the most you'll get out of redoing all the steel frame parts in aluminum is only about 20# less curb wt. - not much for the effort involved, I'm sure you'll agree! Unfortunately, only about 5# of that is in the subframe & swingarm [barring total redesign; I'm just talking straight across reproduction of the stock parts in aluminum, & these are of course very rough guesstimations.] Is it worth doing? Not now, but if Guzzi had done it while the V11 was still in production, it might have made for slightly better market success; we'll never know for sure...

 

Where Ghezzi & Brian did so well on the Supertwin frame was in combining the bracing of the basic spine frame with elimination of the airbox: essentially, the box formed by the bracing btw spine & crosspiece is the airbox, which is of course what Guzzi/Dr John should have done in the first place, instead of using the spine for oil separation. Either that, or use the [arguably better] solution of using the spine for fuel, & putting the airbox under a false "tank" a la' Buell. [And yes, FWIW, I was thinking along those lines the 1st time I saw a Supertwin up close, which predates Erik Buell's new approach by a couple of years... it just makes SO much more sense in terms of mass centralization. Shut up, Honda! ]

 

As you said about the Big Bore: "show me the money." Frankly, if I was going to spend those kinds of ducats to go to a water-cooled big twin, I'd do it right & upgrade to a transverse twin a la' the Ducs, Suzukis, Moto Morini, et al.: the elimination of gyroscopic f/x on handling & decreased drag from not needing to hang big air-cooled jugs out in the breeze are the only benefits to the increased complexity of water-cooling & associated baggage. [besides the power; we're talking Big Bore vs. other water-cooled motors here, not the a/c Guzzi mill vs. pumpers...]

 

Seats are of course, a personal thing, but quite frankly Corbin's rep has slid over the last decade or two: in his time, he was basically the only option: now, we have alternatives w/ a superior focus on customer service than what I've heard comes out of Central CA these days. I think you can almost certainly get a better seat from someone else that won't require changing the subframe, is all I'm sayin'.

 

To sum up, I think there's room for both ends of the spectrum here: why spend the money on upgrading your Guzzi? Because you can! The truth is that the Guzzi mill has a lot of power left untapped because of the factory dropping the ball on prep/assembly! You'll waste a lot of time & money trying to make a giant-killer out of it, but the money spent on tidying up where the factory left loose ends is certainly not "wasted," by virtue of the fact that it can be done at your own pace & as your budget allows, all the while leaving you free to enjoy your bike as it is. Each step increases your enjoyment: the journey is the reward!

 

 

PS - If somebody wants to bankroll me w/ a workshop & raw materials, I'll bonk out a dozen of my fuel-in-frame & false tank airbox idea so you can take your old V11 F/X racing! You'll still be bringing up the back of the pack because your power/wt ratio is going to be so far off the front runners, but hey, you'll be doing so in style!

[Dan M]

To sum up, I think there's room for both ends of the spectrum here: why spend the money on upgrading your Guzzi? Because you can! The truth is that the Guzzi mill has a lot of power left untapped because of the factory dropping the ball on prep/assembly! You'll waste a lot of time & money trying to make a giant-killer out of it, but the money spent on tidying up where the factory left loose ends is certainly not "wasted," by virtue of the fact that it can be done at your own pace & as your budget allows, all the while leaving you free to enjoy your bike as it is. Each step increases your enjoyment: the journey is the reward!

 

Well put Skeeve.

I agree that there is plenty that can be done without too much sacrifice in terms of reliability. Some choices are better than others. Some are indeed a waste of money. One thing that governs most in terms of these decisions is money. Once past the common external mods, the price ramps up quickly causing some to put on the brakes so to speak. Of course others with plenty of money to spend often do move ahead at full speed with a "give me everything" approach. In many cases, this ends up as a costly mistake, which is in a nutshell what RH is saying. <_>

[Richard]

This appears to be quickly turning into a p@$sing contest.....

[Guest drknow]

This appears to be quickly turning into a p@$sing contest.....

You say that like it's a bad thing

I'm all for going after horsepower, lord knows I've done it plenty with other marques. Not a lot of easy to get hp past about 85 rear wheel hp on a V11 though. Ask Pierre about 2V horsepower. It's there, but not easy to get. I'm with RacerX, porting the heads and some cams are really the next thing after the standard stuff. Then the cost/benefit analysis goes downhill fast. Love to be proven wrong though. DO IT, DO IT!

 

dk

[Skeeve]

You say that like it's a bad thing

I'm all for going after horsepower, lord knows I've done it plenty. Not a lot of easy to get hp past about 85 rear wheel hp. As Pierre about 2V horsepower. It's there, but not easy to get. I'm with RacerX, porting the heads and some cams are really the next thing after the standard stuff. Then the cost/benefit analysis goes downhill fast. Love to be proven wrong though. DO IT, DO IT!

 

dk

 

Just remember that the best power cam for the 2v mill has no overlap... and a blower attached!

 

Ride on,

 

[savagehenry]

Hi ALdad, Here's my experience with my '04 Nero. I bought it from the original owner, who had ALL the work done by Fast By Ferracci. Before FBF started the project, they told him it did not sound like he would end up with the type of bike he was seeking to build. It wasn't, and he bought a much higher HP Italian bike (in stock dress, just beggin' to be made FASTER! ) not long after this one was done. Not to knock the theory/conjecture in this thread so far, but let's look at some "real world numbers",

 

FBF 11:1 compression pistons- $300.00

FBF Cross over pipe- $240.00

FBF carbon fiber slip ons- $735.00

FBF oversized valve set- $276.00

FBF modified open airbox and BMC filter- $50.00

Power Commander III- $397.00

PLUS ($ charged is unknown)a big Breva cam,

Hand port and polished heads

In house Dyno tuning for a "guaranteed" 90 hp at the rear wheel.

Parts and labor TOTAL PRICE- $5800.00

Hell, the Nero Corsa package was $15,000+/- to start with! Now we're easily OVER $20K!

And I always run premium fuel= more money over the long term...

Bought it with 5000 miles at two years old, and I have just turned the 10K mile mark in the last 10 monthes.

 

My opinion, based very far from what some consider the real world as in "you ride a what?!? a MODO what?..."

It is ALOT of fun, smile every ride, all that stuff you read in much better prose on this site by MANY others. And it has been utterly dependable. I have NEVER not made it home or left it somewhere dead. I want to ride, we ride. I use it to commute 25 miles a day to work. I've done a 450 mile day of nothing but curves and hills, pure shits and giggles in my helmet. I try to ride pretty much everyday above 35 degrees. And I ride in rain and cold below freezing with regularity. Took off the rear hugger and made a couple rain shields for the shock and battery box, dielectric greased every blessed connector I could find. Made my own "Roper "plate, LOVE IT! NO more red light take offs! DO IT if you chase HP, with out a doubt! I have done 95% of all scheduled maintenence, per the manual, myself. The price HE paid for this bike, and the extra 20 hp+/- was more than I would be able to afford, but I have shown it more love than money. I couldn't even imagine this bike if it were slower now. It is a PERFECT road bike to me. The torque is what makes it SO fu#kin' fun, and it is totally trust worthy. You,money, and a good builder can do this regardless of if it is a '00 or one of the later years, IMHO. The end. Good luck, S.H.

[polebridge]

Hi ALdad, Here's my experience with my '04 Nero. I bought it from the original owner, who had ALL the work done by Fast By Ferracci. Before FBF started the project, they told him it did not sound like he would end up with the type of bike he was seeking to build. It wasn't, and he bought a much higher HP Italian bike (in stock dress, just beggin' to be made FASTER! ) not long after this one was done. Not to knock the theory/conjecture in this thread so far, but let's look at some "real world numbers",

 

FBF 11:1 compression pistons- $300.00

FBF Cross over pipe- $240.00

FBF carbon fiber slip ons- $735.00

FBF oversized valve set- $276.00

FBF modified open airbox and BMC filter- $50.00

Power Commander III- $397.00

PLUS ($ charged is unknown)a big Breva cam,

Hand port and polished heads

In house Dyno tuning for a "guaranteed" 90 hp at the rear wheel.

Parts and labor TOTAL PRICE- $5800.00

Hell, the Nero Corsa package was $15,000+/- to start with! Now we're easily OVER $20K!

And I always run premium fuel= more money over the long term...

Bought it with 5000 miles at two years old, and I have just turned the 10K mile mark in the last 10 monthes.

 

My opinion, based very far from what some consider the real world as in "you ride a what?!? a MODO what?..."

It is ALOT of fun, smile every ride, all that stuff you read in much better prose on this site by MANY others. And it has been utterly dependable. I have NEVER not made it home or left it somewhere dead. I want to ride, we ride. I use it to commute 25 miles a day to work. I've done a 450 mile day of nothing but curves and hills, pure shits and giggles in my helmet. I try to ride pretty much everyday above 35 degrees. And I ride in rain and cold below freezing with regularity. Took off the rear hugger and made a couple rain shields for the shock and battery box, dielectric greased every blessed connector I could find. Made my own "Roper "plate, LOVE IT! NO more red light take offs! DO IT if you chase HP, with out a doubt! I have done 95% of all scheduled maintenence, per the manual, myself. The price HE paid for this bike, and the extra 20 hp+/- was more than I would be able to afford, but I have shown it more love than money. I couldn't even imagine this bike if it were slower now. It is a PERFECT road bike to me. The torque is what makes it SO fu#kin' fun, and it is totally trust worthy. You,money, and a good builder can do this regardless of if it is a '00 or one of the later years, IMHO. The end. Good luck, S.H.

 

You forgot to mention how great your bike sounds.

 

One of the FBF mechanics started if for me (before you owned it I believe) and at that moment I knew I was going to be a future MG owner. I wound up buying a 2004 Coppa Italia. I have Ti pipes, FBF X-pipe, FBF airbox kit, PC-III and a custom map done by FBF. According to FBF's dyno I now have 87 RWHP which sounds a bit optimistic to me. Of the above mods which do you think gave the most improvement? By the way, they told me that your bike made around 100 RWHP.

 

Either way, nice machine you have there.

[GuzziMoto]

Ferraci's horses are small italian horses so more of them fit in the same space as american horses.

His dyno only reads optimistic after he's modded your bike. But even 90 RwHp is great out of a Guzzi. That's like 20% over stock. Sweet. My wifes V11 has about 85 Rwhp but I don't think the map is all it could be and close to 90 could be within reach, but that can wait. The bike is quick enough for now.

[Guest ratchethack]

Hi ALdad, Here's my experience with my '04 Nero. I bought it from the original owner, who had ALL the work done by Fast By Ferracci. Before FBF started the project, they told him it did not sound like he would end up with the type of bike he was seeking to build. It wasn't, and he bought a much higher HP Italian bike (in stock dress, just beggin' to be made FASTER! ) not long after this one was done. Not to knock the theory/conjecture in this thread so far, but let's look at some "real world numbers",

 

FBF 11:1 compression pistons- $300.00

FBF Cross over pipe- $240.00

FBF carbon fiber slip ons- $735.00

FBF oversized valve set- $276.00

FBF modified open airbox and BMC filter- $50.00

Power Commander III- $397.00

PLUS ($ charged is unknown)a big Breva cam,

Hand port and polished heads

In house Dyno tuning for a "guaranteed" 90 hp at the rear wheel.

Parts and labor TOTAL PRICE- $5800.00

Hell, the Nero Corsa package was $15,000+/- to start with! Now we're easily OVER $20K!

And I always run premium fuel= more money over the long term...

Bought it with 5000 miles at two years old, and I have just turned the 10K mile mark in the last 10 monthes.

 

My opinion, based very far from what some consider the real world as in "you ride a what?!? a MODO what?..."

It is ALOT of fun, smile every ride, all that stuff you read in much better prose on this site by MANY others. And it has been utterly dependable. I have NEVER not made it home or left it somewhere dead. I want to ride, we ride. I use it to commute 25 miles a day to work. I've done a 450 mile day of nothing but curves and hills, pure shits and giggles in my helmet. I try to ride pretty much everyday above 35 degrees. And I ride in rain and cold below freezing with regularity. Took off the rear hugger and made a couple rain shields for the shock and battery box, dielectric greased every blessed connector I could find. Made my own "Roper "plate, LOVE IT! NO more red light take offs! DO IT if you chase HP, with out a doubt! I have done 95% of all scheduled maintenence, per the manual, myself. The price HE paid for this bike, and the extra 20 hp+/- was more than I would be able to afford, but I have shown it more love than money. I couldn't even imagine this bike if it were slower now. It is a PERFECT road bike to me. The torque is what makes it SO fu#kin' fun, and it is totally trust worthy. You,money, and a good builder can do this regardless of if it is a '00 or one of the later years, IMHO. The end. Good luck, S.H.

Congrat's, S.H., on achieving your own objectives, and apparently very successfully! Looks like the PO missed on this score and you were able to swoop in for a diving catch, so to speak.

 

Thanks for posting the numbers on your mods and gear. This will no doubt be helpful for many.

 

Now f'er cryin' out loud, this post IS NOT intended to piss you off! But no doubt somebody around here is gonna take extreme offense.

 

C'est la vie. Some people are always inclined to take offense at anything that makes them think (especially thinking thoughts they're most inclined to avoid), and waddayagonna do? I'm inclined to run a little counterpoint, that's all. Makes for wot some might consider a more balanced perspective overall. Don't much care if it makes some people uncomfortable, nor do I much care who's inclined to peg me as a contrarian.

 

Just a little basic analysis here, hopefully both instructive and helpful. Now WRT costs. . . It looks like you didn't have access to wot was spent on the Breva cam, porting & polishing job, and the dyno tune. Would it be fair to estimate all of this at ~$1,200?

 

If so, Parts and labor TOTAL PRICE was $7K on top of the Nero Corsa package, which was $15,000+/- to start with, so now you're up to ~$22K for the whole enchilada.

 

Hm. As a little comparo, the cost of parts & labor on the mods on your bike ALONE is exactly wot I paid for my PO'd (yet flawless and showroom pristine) Sport in full, 5 years ago. I've put somewhere near ~$1K in just a few of the same basic mods off your list, for $8K on the whole enchilada.

 

Now this is just me, and it seems that I might be somewhat less willing (and possibly less able, even if I were so inclined) than yerself to dedicate funds at the same level on my moto's (of which I have 2), but for wot was spent on your NC, I could've easily bought THREE PO'd V11's of equivalent market value to my own, with enough left over for the kinds of mod's I prefer on one of them. Alternatively, a selection of 3 different flavors of moto's (A V11 Guzzi, a big trailie, and a track bike f'r instance), or a nice well taken care of Boxster would come in around the same figure.

 

Of course my Sport is somewhere close to 10 hp down on your NC. Now I'm absolutely certain that (at least acording to wot great many hereabouts believe, if they actually believe wot they post) the 10 hp "delta" here is beyond value -- that is, one might say that additional 10 hp is PRICELESS. In any case, one must consider that the cost of that 10 hp simply doesn't "pencil out" for everyone, (myself included) -- particularly when not holding WOT for more than several seconds at a time, at most a few times a year?!?!

 

Just curious. Do you find yourself riding your NC at WOT much of the time on the road? You do understand that unless you're not only at WOT, but ALSO HOLDING IT AT WOT thru 7-8K RPM at the same time, where the dyno tuning peak number came from, that you're not making any use wotsoever of that additional 10 hp? Wot percentage of your time on the road d'you figure you're within that "peak hp" window?

 

Just checking. And by all means, wotever floats y'er boat!

[polebridge]

'And by all means, wotever floats y'er boat!'

 

I think you just hit it on the head Ratchethack. It's not always about just getting 'bang for the buck'. Some simply enjoy modifying even if the gains are only slight. I think that, within reason, I fall into this category. I have stopped short of investing too much money in things like high comp pistons and new cams but hey, if money is no object and you understand the caveats, then why not if you are so inclined?

 

The nice thing is that through this board we can all learn from each others experience (mistakes and successes). I know that for me it was very helpful reading the opposing opinions on this subject before I decided on my own mods. You may remember some of my previous threads on this subject. All advice was very much welcomed (and still is).

 

Great board!

[Guest ratchethack]

. . .for me it was very helpful reading the opposing opinions on this subject before I decided on my own mods. You may remember some of my previous threads on this subject. All advice was very much welcomed (and still is).

 

Great board!

Indeed I do recall. Glad there's at least ONE out there not inclined to take my annoying posts as some kinda personal threat.

 

Great board, alright. Where else you gonna go f'er this stuff??

[GuzziMoto]

It's not just at WOT that my V11 is faster then yours, it's at any throttle opening. Not trying to piss you off.The point is that a tuned up V11 not only makes more power at WOT but is more responsive to any size throttle opening and for some of us that makes the riding experience more fun. The top speed of my V11 isn't much different then the top speed of yours, but mine is quicker at any speed and throttle position then it was. For some of us, That is worth a few thousand dollars. As long as you have realistic expectations of the outcome, modding a Guzzi can improve the riding experience if want.

[Guest ratchethack]

GMOTO, I b'lieve you're still missing my point. Sure your V11 makes more power at all throttle settings than mine. The point is, that as long as we're both at less than WOT, all I need do is crack open a little more throttle to make the same power -- and there it is! If I want "MORE RESPONSIVE" throttle, I simply whack it open a little more. In my own case (100% riding on the road, not the track) -- which I doubt is so unusual, even if others are somehow disinclined to admit it, I hardly EVER hit my throttle stop. I b'lieve that truth be told, just about everyone not doing track time with their Guzzi's is likely doing much the same.

 

Wot it boils down to, in other words, GMOTO, is that unless (and until) you're hitting WOT a "significant" percentage of your time and holding it open up thru 7-8K RPM, you're not even accessing the additional power you spent all your effort chasing. Capice?

[GuzziMoto]

I think it might be you that's missing the point. I understand that you don't need anymore power then you currently are getting out of your V11. That's fine. More power to ya(so to speak). But for some of us a faster, more responsive Guzzi is a good thing. That is a personal choice. Personally I choose more power and responsiveness. And both me and my wife can tell the difference. A more responsive Guzzi feels like a faster bike then it is compared to a stock Guzzi. A we both do hit the throttle stop on a frequent basis. For us it's not about improving top speed but the acceleration out of the corners. Clearly you do not ride like we do and that's fine. In the end it comes down to either you get it or you don't. I get it.