More pony's please

[Skeeve]

I am not too worried about the six speed. I think they designed it to endure a lot more power, or at least the Guzziology author suggested that. But how much more, I cannot say. I think all my blown shifts have done more damage to it, then a more powerful engine would. But I am just guessing as nobody has tested a V11 gearbox with that much power, although Paul M has been riding his six speed bored out Quatrovalvole for quite a while.

 

Definitely NOT an expert here, but I remember reading about how the 6-speed in the V11 was a bit of a radical departure from industry "norms," being a 4-shaft transmission [vs. the more normal 3-shaft], with the intent being that with the different layout, the gears could be wider (to handle torque loads) yet still shift quickly, etc.

 

Wish I could remember where I read that, it was very likely on-line, since so few moto-rags ever even had articles on Moto Guzzis up until the Piaggio buyout of Aprilia [which likely only got the press it did because Ducati was in the hunt as well...]

 

Ride on!

[dlaing]

Definitely NOT an expert here, but I remember reading about how the 6-speed in the V11 was a bit of a radical departure from industry "norms," being a 4-shaft transmission [vs. the more normal 3-shaft], with the intent being that with the different layout, the gears could be wider (to handle torque loads) yet still shift quickly, etc.

 

Wish I could remember where I read that, it was very likely on-line, since so few moto-rags ever even had articles on Moto Guzzis up until the Piaggio buyout of Aprilia [which likely only got the press it did because Ducati was in the hunt as well...]

 

Ride on!

Guzziology Author Dave Richardson wrote this review of the V11.

http://www.mgnoc.com/article_ask_the_wrench.html

Pretty sure that is what you read.

He says some stuff about it having 2 instead of three layshafts with the primary reduction after the shiftable gears, putting less torque on those gears, which allows the pre-primary-gears to be narrower, and thus lighter, allowing for easier shifting!!!!

He also discusses how the design indicates the gear box and bevel drive can handle more powerful engines.

If you forgot some of the reasons why you love your V11, go read his insightful review, or just go read it anyway.

Keep in mind he wrote this before the tranny recall, which was apparently a gear material issue, not a design flaw.

[dlaing]

Well, I've seen the inside when the spring broke, looked fine on first sight, but hadden't time to do a very good examination. No dramas anyway, and it shifts very light and good.

Glad to hear it!

FWIW Paul's bike is 1200cc/ 110Hp/ 122Nm

Yah a 165HP V11BigBore could certainly be harder on the drive train, if you actually use all that power.

Oh yah, my other complaint about the BigBore kit is the ugly radiator. Retrofitting something from a different bike could look better or maybe hiding them behind plastic.

The 125HP V11BigBore would be satisfying enough, and I am sure Paul's bike would have all the power I need, so going the route of a multi-valve air cooled 1200cc is another option. His website show's his friend, Huite's 133HP dynotec bike that is more power than I would regularly use. Dynotec can build the multivalve Guzzi up even more than that. The new production quatrovalvoles probably have even more potential!

[Skeeve]

Guzziology Author Dave Richardson wrote this review of the V11.

http://www.mgnoc.com/article_ask_the_wrench.html

Pretty sure that is what you read.

 

Yep! Dang, Laing, good pull! Very impressive...

 

Ride on!

[dabore84]

I think you cant compare a hayabusa with a guzzi. First the 4 vs 2 cylinders. Then 4 vs 2 valves per cylinder. Japan vs Italy.

 

Second, I want to ride my v11 on a daily basis, home-work. I want it to have good fuel economy and all weather reliability. So I put my money on those things.

 

When I bought my bike, it came with bos slip-on exhausts. What are your opinions on that?

[dlaing]

I think you cant compare a hayabusa with a guzzi. First the 4 vs 2 cylinders. Then 4 vs 2 valves per cylinder. Japan vs Italy.

 

Second, I want to ride my v11 on a daily basis, home-work. I want it to have good fuel economy and all weather reliability. So I put my money on those things.

 

When I bought my bike, it came with bos slip-on exhausts. What are your opinions on that?

You just compared them

Some of us prefer Guzzis to every other mark, so the only way that to get Hayabusa power on a Guzzi is to spend gobs of money.

 

According to dynos I have seen, Bos make excellent power.

Assuming the bike is enriched to compensate for the way the aftermarket mufflers breathe, you might get a little better fuel economy with the stock mufflers.

[pete roper]

Ratch? Dave? We know you don't like each other but do you have to carry on like such a pair of pantomime Queens? .

 

At the end of the day everyone thinks they want more power. That's fine. I don't doubt it for a minute but just so that people can do a bit of extrapolating on what is involved in chasing power out of what is essentially a ditchpump motor.

 

Probably about 15 years ago now I did just about everything I could, using well proven mods from world reknowned Guzzi tuners and a few ideas of my own, to build my idea of the ultimate Guzzi Hot-rod. BAck in the early eighties I had the good fortune to get a ride on one of Amadeo Castellanis short stroke bikes. It was a peach. Ever since that time I'd wanted to build something similar.

 

To cut a LONG story short it was very, very expensive. Not just the parts but the time, the machining etc.etc. The end result was a comparatively tractable bike that made 84 RWBHP (IMHO optimistic as most Dynos are.) out of 891cc @9,750RPM.

 

I rode it hard. Very hard. It was fun.

 

Big end shells lasted in the region of 20-30 hours.

 

Every 2nd or third set of shells the rods needed re-sizing. If I'd had them done again I would of had to buy new rods, (Carrilos, especially 'Special Order' ones aren't cheap.)

 

Pistons? Ah, shit! Why go into detail. Essentially I had to throw away very expensive parts VERY OFTEN to get that sort of performance. Our race bike has over 100cc more, produces much the same power and is more reliable! And the clincher is that my Griso produces only a bit less, ( A decently set up V11 will produce much the same!) but I NEVER HAVE TO DO ANYTHING TO IT! How good is that!

 

I'm sure I've said it before but by far the best money you can spend is on suspension and set up. After that? Yes, there are a host of things you can do to make the bike a bit more powerful and a LOT more enjoyable. Jon Margrave's (Guzzi Jon.) LeMans {RIP} is a fine example of this. It was simply set up well and worked splendidly. I only wish I'd had a chance to ride it before it had been trowelled.

 

Yes, in standard bore/stroke form the V11 has a staggering 78cc more than our race bike and 179(?)cc more than my little hot rod but the architechture remains the same apart from an inferior bore/stroke ratio and a much longer stroke on the V11. 100HP/ litre has for a very, very long time been seen as the realistic limit of output from an air cooled 2V twin of any configuration. Sure you can get more but you start moving into the area of very limited service life of expensive componentry and the laws of diminishing returns start reaching the upper end of the parabola.

 

I still reckon that what many people want when they say they want 'More Power' is essentially greater tractability, especially in the area between about 5,000 and 7,000RPM and the ability to not be faster but *quicker*. Best way to achieve that as a first step is to make sure both wheels are on the ground ALL the time. Second step is to optimise the actual *Bits* you have by correct set up, (And this can involve something like a My15M or a Power Commander or whatever but try just setting up the stock ECU properly first. I'm amazed by how many are really, really bad!).

 

Next on the list is, as Skeeve says, the heads. Just clean the por things up! This is a MASS PRODUCED product! You can make huge improvements by simply matching stuff up so it actually FITS TOGETHER like it should! Then you can look at pistons and squish in conjunction with a cam, (Although to cam up a V11 will produce greatly accelerated wear in the guides and followers.). When you do that you'll have to re-map it again.

 

After that you can start doing all the fancy stuff if your pockets are deep enough.

 

Alternatively you can buy a 2 year old R6, stick some race-glass on it, set up the suspension, change the oil and buy a set of slicks and a day pass for a track day once a month or so and go flog the bollocks off it and enjoy your V11 for what it is on the road. The R6 option will be a LOT cheaper than trying to get the mythical 100 ponies out of the ditchpump, especially if you want *reliability* (Term used advisedly!) thrown in.

 

By all means modify the f@ck out of your V11's and chase horsepower! Stick a sodding blower on 'em if you want and can afford it! It'd be fun, (But I'd be the one in the suit of medieval armour cowering around the corner carrying a dustbin lid to deflect the frag when you wick the bugger up on the rollers! ) Just don't expect it to be either easy or cheap! It certainly won't be something you'd want to ride to work or the local tiddly-winks tournament

 

Pete

[Guest ratchethack]

Thanks for yet another dose o' reason and wisdom backed by your well-qualified and hard-earned experience, Pete.

 

You do realize that this is all "narrow-minded thinking", don't you?

 

And of course you understand it'll be completely ignored by the usual suspects, as always.

 

But waddayagonna do with the Dreamlanders when they keep inviting others (who may not necessarily know any better) to join them in castles they've built in the air? . . .[sigh]. . .

 

Maybe the best that can ever be done is to advise, "Watch that first step out the front door -- it's a Lu-Lu!"

[polebridge]

I agree Pete. If what you want is Hayabusa levels of HP than you should probably just go out a buy a gosh darn Hayabusa and be done with it. You'll have a bike that was built from the ground up to handle that kind of power no problem.

 

Keep the Guzzi of course for when you are feeling a bit more sane.

 

My other bike is a slightly modified Aprilia Falco and I think that gets in the neighborhood of 115-120 HP. Plenty for me. I can't imagine needing any more power for a 'street' bike. My V11 gets about 87 RWHP and I ride this quite a bit more often then the Aprilia. I just happen to like the way those 87 ponies 'feel' and I would not want to do anything to jeopardize that. When I am feeling up to it I can always take out the Aprilia and scare the crap of myself.

[dlaing]

Ratch? Dave? We know you don't like each other but do you have to carry on like such a pair of pantomime Queens? .

I am just sticking to the facts, while Ratchet misleading people with untrue statements.

I could let it slide, but it ain't my nature.

 

 

At the end of the day everyone thinks they want more power.

Not Ratchet.

 

 

Big end shells lasted in the region of 20-30 hours.

What is so different about the V11 that it can make 5-10 more horsepower with the big end shells lasting so much longer?

 

I'm sure I've said it before but by far the best money you can spend is on suspension and set up.

That is where my money has gone, to Ratchet's protests.....

 

 

I still reckon that what many people want when they say they want 'More Power' is essentially greater tractability, especially in the area between about 5,000 and 7,000RPM and the ability to not be faster but *quicker*.

Tractability is nice, but when I say I want more power, I mean I want more power.

I am sure Ratchet understands exactly what you mean by quicker rather than faster.

Good Grief!

Redefining reality seems to be a favorite past time for some around here.

I rarely give a damn how quick or how fast I get from point A to point B.

Power and speed are about exhilaration, not about ending the ride sooner. I am racing nobody.

Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.Quicker is better than faster.

Keep repeating it and you will believe it.

 

 

Best way to achieve that as a first step is to make sure both wheels are on the ground ALL the time.

So, let's recap: When people say they want more power, it is because they want tractability, not to be faster, but to be quicker, and the best way to make all this happen is to keep both wheels on the ground ALL the time, and if you keep the rubber side down, you won't want any more power.

How boring. ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz.

But I suppose there is something ZZZzzzzen about the approach.

 

Second step is to optimise the actual *Bits* you have by correct set up, (And this can involve something like a My15M or a Power Commander or whatever but try just setting up the stock ECU properly first. I'm amazed by how many are really, really bad!).

No argument here, accept I would bump that up to being the first thing one should do for more power, since I have no plans to keep both wheels on the ground ALL the time, especially during tire changes.

 

Next on the list is, as Skeeve says, the heads. Just clean the por things up! This is a MASS PRODUCED product! You can make huge improvements by simply matching stuff up so it actually FITS TOGETHER like it should! Then you can look at pistons and squish in conjunction with a cam, (Although to cam up a V11 will produce greatly accelerated wear in the guides and followers.). When you do that you'll have to re-map it again.

 

After that you can start doing all the fancy stuff if your pockets are deep enough.

Damn! that seems pretty fancy to me!!! You ol' closet hot rodder!!!! Are you sure you don't lift that front wheel every now and then?????

Not sure doing it in the listed steps is necessary. You can certainly save money modding first and mapping later.

 

Alternatively you can buy a 2 year old R6, stick some race-glass on it, set up the suspension, change the oil and buy a set of slicks and a day pass for a track day once a month or so and go flog the bollocks off it and enjoy your V11 for what it is on the road. The R6 option will be a LOT cheaper than trying to get the mythical 100 ponies out of the ditchpump, especially if you want *reliability* (Term used advisedly!) thrown in.

You can't be serious!!!!

I'd far sooner spend the time and money on my Guzzi, thank you very much for the ridiculous advice

 

By all means modify the f@ck out of your V11's and chase horsepower! Stick a sodding blower on 'em if you want and can afford it! It'd be fun, (But I'd be the one in the suit of medieval armour cowering around the corner carrying a dustbin lid to deflect the frag when you wick the bugger up on the rollers! ) Just don't expect it to be either easy or cheap! It certainly won't be something you'd want to ride to work or the local tiddly-winks tournament

 

Pete

Thankfully you are merely cowardice and not narrow minded, as Ratchet implied.

[pete roper]

Look, I'm not buying into anyones bunfight and I'm not clever enough to do the separate quotes thing so you'll have to follow this as best you can

 

What is so different about the V11 that it can make 5-10 more horsepower with the big end shells lasting so much longer?

 

It makes the power, and the torque, at lower RPM's. What killed the bearings in mine was a combination of speed, oil pump cavitation and lack of oil pressure. Modern aprilias like the RXV (?) the little twin. run 100 at idle and 120 at very high RPM. Guzzis run 55-60PSI.

 

 

Tractability is nice, but when I say I want more power, I mean I want more power.

 

So buy a powerful bike or a lighter bike or a bike that is both more powerful and lighter. There is a limit to how much power you can make a 2V pushrod twin produce and the Guzzi platform is anything but a lightweight!

 

I am sure Ratchet understands exactly what you mean by quicker rather than faster.

Good Grief!

Redefining reality seems to be a favorite past time for some around here.

I rarely give a damn how quick or how fast I get from point A to point B.

Power and speed are about exhilaration, not about ending the ride sooner. I am racing nobody.

 

I don't see where we are in any sort of disagreement on this. I love acceleration. The feeling of something like a Daytona RS coming on the cam in 3rd when it has bee set up properly is something truly amazing and very visceral. Lots of bikes will actually be accelerating faster and will have a much greater top speed but by god! when the exhaust note drops almost a full octave,the intake starts to honk, the front goes all stupidly light and the bum-stop suddenly slams into yor arse you begin to wonder what the hell you're doing! It's an incredibly SUBJECTIVE thing but there IS a limit to what you can drag out of the old 2V motor.

 

 

So, let's recap: When people say they want more power, it is because they want tractability, not to be faster, but to be quicker, and the best way to make all this happen is to keep both wheels on the ground ALL the time, and if you keep the rubber side down, you won't want any more power.

 

Not what I'm saying at all. All I'm saying is that if you do want V-Max or 'Bussa type performance and you buy a Guzzi? You've bought the WRONG machine!

 

 

You can't be serious!!!!

I'd far sooner spend the time and money on my Guzzi, thank you very much for the ridiculous advice

 

But Dave, (sorry, my editing seems to have gone tits up too. I'm no 'pooter whizz.) why? We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Look. If you want to dig a hole 30metres long and ten wide and three deep what tool would you use? A kiddie's beach spade? A Gardening trowel? Or would you use a sodding great backhoe with the biggest bucket you could fit on it. I'd go the backhoe for that task but I find the beach very enjoyable.

 

 

Thankfully you are merely cowardice and not narrow minded, as Ratchet implied.

 

The way I got to be as old and fat as I am is by being extremely cautious. If you'd ever seen a motor come apart while being tested you'd appreciate why I'd be hiding round a corner in the armour. I knew people who've been killed when motors let go on the bench and these were clever people who just made one stupid mistake and it cost them their lives. You perhaps don't realize exactly how much energy there is stored in a connecting rod when the engine is working at full noise, never mind the flywheel. That sucker will cut you clean in two if it shears off just like a circular saw blade. While these things are 'Toys' they are bloody dangerous toys. Trifle with them as you like but believe me someone will end up crying. There is a huge difference between calculated risk and arrogant hubris. If you see my statement as cowardice? So be it. I can still sleep well at night.

 

Pete

[raz]

The feeling of something like a Daytona RS coming on the cam in 3rd when it has been set up properly is something truly amazing and very visceral. Lots of bikes will actually be accelerating faster and will have a much greater top speed but by god! when the exhaust note drops almost a full octave,the intake starts to honk, the front goes all stupidly light and the bum-stop suddenly slams into yor arse you begin to wonder what the hell you're doing!

I got goose bumps reading the "exhaust note drops" part

[pete roper]

I got goose bumps reading the "exhaust note drops" part

 

It's an experience I don't own a Hi-Cam but a good 'Tona will crack the 100HP barrier if not with ease then with some sensible work, mainly tuning the FI. It should be remembered though that is is still a big, heavy, crude, long wheelbase mororbike. If you wants *Fast* there are any number of bikes that will do that much *better* than the 'Tona but it FEELS ike I think a motorbike should feel and it has a real "You f@ck with me and I'll kill you!" attitude that makes you feel like a man, even if you are, like me, a mouse studying to become a rat .

 

I'm hoping that my Griso 8V will offer the same sort of visceral punch, it's essentially a very similar engine in most ways to the earlier Hi-Cam. Thing is that the nice people at Piagio will probably of sanitized and Honda-ized it so that it will appeal to yer aveage BMW owner. S'not really an issue though as making it uncivilized will probably be a lot easier than making it civilized. There has to be *more* to get out of the 8V as its what Guzzi have pinned their hopes on for the next few years. I just hope that someone can convince the Piagio drones if they made a Nuovo LeMans it wouldn't steal sales from Aprilia but it might get some riders off other mounts like the Bimmer twins.

 

I'm told that the filthy scow with the first shipment of 8V's has docked in Sydney so I hope to be able to join BFG soon in a festival of gurning at my new steed and trying to work out what does what and what's going to go wrong before it has a chance to

 

Pete

[Guest ratchethack]

I am just sticking to the facts, while Ratchet misleading people with untrue statements.

I could let it slide, but it ain't my nature.

. . .It is possible to bring a V11 nearly up to the level of performance of a BOT champion and for the most part, beyond the performance level of the fastest big four stock hyperbikes.

That's right, Dave. Keep on sticking to "facts" like the one above, and BY ALL MEANS, don't EVER let me get away with any untrue or misleading statements!

 

CONFESSION: I’ve just had myself an epiphany on this subject!

 

Today I watched the YouTube video (see link below) and listened to this guy sing his song. It was nothing short of an awe-inspiring, uplifting, captivating, out-o’-body kinda experience. First I was swimming in a warm Hawaiian lagoon, floating along without a care. Next thing I knew I was soaring above the tree-tops with the bluebirds – waaaaaay up high! It was a wonderful, floaty, soft and fuzzy, liberating kinda thing. I got all goofy and teary-eyed. Not bad for a haole, eh?

 

Afterward I felt all soft and gushy inside, and my stomach went all a-flutter. I felt the way I imagine 16-year-old Judy Garland must have felt when she sang the same song in The Wizard of Oz. I wanted to hug my Guzzi, and feel it hug me back. It was only then that I just knew that my Guzzi could be anything, and do anything. . .and I realized wot you've been saying here all along, Dave -- Dreams that you dare to dream really do come true -- in a land that I heard of once in a lullaby!

 

I see your point of view clearly now, Dave: If happy little bluebirds fly over the rainbow – and especially if the great big walloping kahuna singing this song can do it -- why, oh why, can’t I?!?!?!

 

So now I pass it along to you – just a little something that could help free your mind from all Earthly concerns whenever some mean earthling looks at you funny when you let it slip that you actually believe your V11 Hayabusa Eater is real, or when some nasty, narrow minded earthling laughs when you say that a V11 can perform with any Hyperbike on just about any road.

 

Open your mind and give a listen now, won't you? Please do. You can actually imagine yourself flying your Guzzi over the rainbow as you let the melody lift you up, up and away, leaving the Hayabusa and all the rest o' the Hyperbikes far, far behind! Really. It's a happy, happy, ever so happy kinda thing!

 

Somewhere Over the Rainbow

http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p...;vid=1283912723

(clicky above for the audio/video)

 

Somewhere over the rainbow

Way up high

There's a land that I heard of

Once in a lullaby

 

Somewhere over the rainbow

Skies are blue

And the dreams that you dare to dream

Really do come true

 

Some day I'll wish upon a star

And wake up where the clouds are far behind me

Where troubles melt like lemondrops

Away above the chimney tops

That's where you'll find me

 

Somewhere over the rainbow

Bluebirds fly

Birds fly over the rainbow

Why then, oh why can't I?

 

Some day I'll wish upon a star

And wake up where the clouds are far behind me

Where troubles melt like lemondrops

Away above the chimney tops

That's where you'll find me

 

Somewhere over the rainbow

Bluebirds fly

Birds fly over the rainbow

Why then, oh why can't I?

If happy little bluebirds fly

Beyond the rainbow

Why, oh why can't I?

[macguzzi]

Oh god no it's another of these ,your Guzzi is powerful enough it's a Vee twin designed back in the fifties if you want more power buy something else. Improving the power of any bike is an expensive operation if you don't like what you've got sell it. Stop turning this into spy V's spy (remember that cartoon) or write a book on tuning I'm sometimes scared to ask a question on this forum, would have to agree with Mr Roper on this subject. Is it not time for the rachet dlaing page.