Changed the map, problem in high revs...

[Dimitris]

Hi all!

The last days the only thing that I have in my mind is to finally manage to make my bike run as it should from the beginning. I have the Ferraci airbox lid kit, the BMC filter, Mistral crossover and Mistral mufflers. Also the PCIIIusb.

I had install to the PCIII a map which was made for the Mistral pipes, with Stucchi crossover. The bike was not powerful in the low-mid range, but it was accelarating smoothly till the rev limiter.

The TPS was set to 450 mV-connected- (150mV disconnected) about 2 months ago. At that time the idling was at 1150 rpm (after the TPS setting and the cylinder balancing). The last weeks the idle has been lowered to almost 900 rpm and I can hear from the sound of the engine that it is not working as it used to, 2 months ago. Nevertheless with the above map, although the power was not much in the low-mid range, I could twist the throttle till the rev limiter and the engine was working with no "coughs", hesitations etc..

 

Today I changed the map. I loaded the map which is made exactly for my combination (air filter, lid kit, mistr, x-over, mistr. mufflers). I didn't do anything else (TPS, balancing etc).

 

So now: The power in the mid-low range is much increased. The bike accelerates with more power. Everything is all right till 5.800-6200 rpms. After that and at higher revs the bike starts "coughing"...it reaches with difficulty 7.000 rpm and I can't ride cause of this symptom. I close the throttle a little bit (from 7000 to 6000) and accelarate again (6000 to 7000) and it is not working smoothly...but the opposite. "Hestitations", "coughing"...

 

I thought that it would be better with the correct map. So what do you think of that? I would be very interested in your comments. Why not working good at high revs?

 

Could the only problem be the TPS, meaning that with the new map it may need a different setting? (maybe more mV/degrees)?

 

 

Thank you

 

Dimitris

[gstallons]

Dimitris,

The voltage of the t.p.s should not matter. Did this operate ok before the modifications? When did this the problem start ?

[guzzi jon]

There is enough variation in every guzzi that a downloaded map will at best, only get you close. If you want the best running, best performance and best fuel mileage, hook up with someone who knows guzzi's and the dynolink software. My 02 Lemans made 77 bhp rear wheel, I had drilled many holes in the airbox, added an older serial PCIII, mistral pipes and an FBF X-over. My bike ran great, when Louie was done, it made 85 bhp rear wheel, ran better, better fuel mileage, and ran absolutely perfect. downloaded maps cannot compensate for the numerous variations in evey guzzi, a custom map is perrfected for your exact motorcycle. As I rant often, no reason to get a PCIII and then not get a quality dynolink tune..... On both my Lemans and Cal SS, huge improvments were achieved on what I thought were already perfect running motorcycles

[Dimitris]

Dimitris,

The voltage of the t.p.s should not matter. Did this operate ok before the modifications? When did this the problem start ?

It is not the fisrt time that this problem appears. Previously I had install another map with which the performance was high in low-mid range but I had the same effect in high revs. When I changed map and loaded the Mistral-Stucchi map, the problem at high revs disappeared, but I had not power performance in low-mid range.

Now that I installed the exact suitable map (as I wrote above) this phenomenon appeared again.

 

Could this problem has to do with the amount of fuel at those revs? Could it mean that more fuel is needed "up there", after 6000 rpm? Could this explain the "cough" symptoms?

[dlaing]

I think it could be the TPS setting. The original map would have to have been done with the TPS pretty far out of whack, but it is possible. You could try setting it maybe 20mV high or low and see how it responds.

 

Did you zero out the map using the PCIII software when you installed it? That could be the problem if you did not.

 

Otherwise, you should be able to merge the maps. You know where each misbehaves and behaves, so just merge the good behavior zones. It is kind of tedious, but it should give you good results.

 

But not as good as the results you will get if you go for a custom tuning link map at the dyno, as GuzziJon recommended.

[Dimitris]

I think it could be the TPS setting. The original map would have to have been done with the TPS pretty far out of whack, but it is possible. You could try setting it maybe 20mV high or low and see how it responds.

 

Did you zero out the map using the PCIII software when you installed it? That could be the problem if you did not.

 

Otherwise, you should be able to merge the maps. You know where each misbehaves and behaves, so just merge the good behavior zones. It is kind of tedious, but it should give you good results.

 

But not as good as the results you will get if you go for a custom tuning link map at the dyno, as GuzziJon recommended.

 

Dave,

 

1) when you suggest trying to set it 20mV high or low, you mean .521 +/-20 or 150mV +/-20 ?

 

2) What do you mean if "I zeroed out the map when I installed it?" Please explain to me cause maybe this is the problem, but I do not understand what should I do so as to zero out the map. The only thing I did is connect the PCIIIusb to my PC, open the desired map and push "Send Map". Afterwards an indication appeared informing me that it was sent.

 

Waiting for your reply

 

Thanks

[GuzziMoto]

You should not use the TPS to tune the bike. The first map was not done with the TPS out of wack, it was a pre made map if I understand correctly. As has been mentioned before, a pre made map is only goiong to be close. You may want to try a different map or combine the two you have to make one map. Having a map custom made is the best option, but I realize that may not be possible right now. It sounds like you need more fuel at WOT above 6k. You can modify the map in there now(save a copy of the map before you start changing) using the higher rpm WOT fuel numbers from the other map or just start adding(or removing) fuel at the same points until you have a better running machine.

[Dimitris]

You should not use the TPS to tune the bike. The first map was not done with the TPS out of wack, it was a pre made map if I understand correctly. As has been mentioned before, a pre made map is only goiong to be close. You may want to try a different map or combine the two you have to make one map. Having a map custom made is the best option, but I realize that may not be possible right now. It sounds like you need more fuel at WOT above 6k. You can modify the map in there now(save a copy of the map before you start changing) using the higher rpm WOT fuel numbers from the other map or just start adding(or removing) fuel at the same points until you have a better running machine.

 

GuzziMoto both maps are premade maps. That means the TPS was made out of wack on both maps?

[GuzziMoto]

NO, dlang was assuming you had a custom map made and then reset the TPS to the correct value, I believe. The TPS should be set to the correct value(sounds like you have done that) and then the fuel map tuned to make the bike run correctly. Sounds like your map is close but needs to be adjusted in the upper revs. You can adjust it yourself with the software that comes with the PC or you(or someone you know) might blend both maps together into one. As said, a custom map is prefered but may not be possible at the moment.

[raz]

Dimitris, if you can't dyno right now, keep it simple. The following is free, quick and simple:

 

If you believe you have a correct TPS setting, just leave it that way. Forget about if the maps was made with some other baseline. Also, forget about what they were made for and concentrate on these two simple facts: You have one good map below 5800 rpm. You have one good map above 5800 rpm. Merge them. Enjoy.

 

Then, if you need/want to, dyno the bike when you get a chance. Or just try small tweaks from the resulting map to make it even better.

[Dimitris]

NO, dlang was assuming you had a custom map made and then reset the TPS to the correct value, I believe. The TPS should be set to the correct value(sounds like you have done that) and then the fuel map tuned to make the bike run correctly. Sounds like your map is close but needs to be adjusted in the upper revs. You can adjust it yourself with the software that comes with the PC or you(or someone you know) might blend both maps together into one. As said, a custom map is prefered but may not be possible at the moment.

 

You said: fisrt reset the TPS to the correct value and then tune the fuel map.

*How can I know which TPS value is the correct for my bike? You mean the .521 mV -connected- (150mV disconnected)? I haven't tried it. I ask you because currently the TPS is set at about 450 mV (connected). With that the fisrt map was running good but the map for my combination (see above) is not running good.

 

So I wonder: If I change the TPS, would it run better with the map for my combi? (without having to blend the maps)

Or the problem is lean/or rich mixture so it has nothing to do with the TPS?

 

 

Raz your suggestion sounds logic!! And simple!!

 

 

 

In my plans I will make a custom map, but till then I have to live with a good map (as good as it gets)..

**When I go for tuning in the dyno, at which TPS should I set it, before tuning the bike?

 

 

 

 

thank you for your advises!

[Skeeve]

So I wonder: If I change the TPS, would it run better with the map for my combi? (without having to blend the maps)

 

[Note to Jaap: we need a "Yeah, that" smiley! ]

 

Dimitris:

 

The maps are "built" upon a basis that the TPS is set correctly. You have stated yourself that you haven't set the TPS: ergo, no generic map is going to function correctly, since they are all predicated upon a properly-adjusted TPS!

 

You should:

 

1) Correctly adjust the TPS setting.

2) Download the generic map for your setup.

3) Tweak the values via the software for any failings you may encounter in the generic map.

 

Chances are the generic map will be "close enough for govt. work" once you've got the baseline settings correct. But before you tweak anything, you must get the baseline adjusted properly, or the next time you balance the throttles and reset your TPS, you'll have to start all over with "tweaks" to your map, since it requires you to have the baseline settings correct to function correctly! Control the variables & get consistency: once you've done that, you can dial things in to suit your particular bike.

 

Ride on!

[GuzziMoto]

It never hurts to re-set your TPS. But it is not likely that the TPS has anything to do with your lack of power at high revs. It sounded to me like you had set your TPS two months ago, but doing it again can't hurt. Sounds like you just need to get the fueling sorted. A blend of the two maps should have your bike running well enough.

[dlaing]

Dave,

 

1) when you suggest trying to set it 20mV high or low, you mean .521 +/-20 or 150mV +/-20 ?

 

2) What do you mean if "I zeroed out the map when I installed it?" Please explain to me cause maybe this is the problem, but I do not understand what should I do so as to zero out the map. The only thing I did is connect the PCIIIusb to my PC, open the desired map and push "Send Map". Afterwards an indication appeared informing me that it was sent.

 

Waiting for your reply

 

Thanks

1) Sorry, I should not suggest changing the TPS from 150mV.

Even if it fixes the problem, it is not the best way to fix it.

I disagree with those that are sure the map was created with the TPS set properly, but regardless, tuning it wrong to match another wrong tuning is not the best idea, even it works.

However if you are willing to experiment, and you determined the bike ran great at 170mV we could mark that map off as probably being done with the wrong TPS, although other factors may be at play.

 

2)Sorry, I should not have said zero the map, I should have said zero the throttle. I must have been tired when I posted that...sorry.

With throttle closed, hook up the bike to the computer and run the PCIII software.

Go to upper menu bar and look under the category, "Power Commander Tools" and go down and click "Set Throttle Position"

This will open up a window where you can set the throttle position to the idle or closed position, and the Open or WOT position.

Use the arrows to change the numbers so that the throttle reads 0% when closed and 100% when opened.

I recommend viewing the how to tutorial for the PCIII.

In the tutorial it says to do it with the engine running, but I don't think that is necessary, especially for WOT or Open throttle position. I think I set it with the engine not running. Anybody have better knowledge of whether the engine needs to be running? They say, " The throttle then needs to be opened fully. This can be done with the bike running. If the throttle is quickly rolled to the stop and then immediately roll off the bike will not rev more that a 2,000 or 3,000 rpm."

The closed throttle setting is more critical and easy to set, so if you are uncomfortable setting the Open setting, don't bother if is within 5% of 100%.

Check out the how to set the throttle tutorial here:

http://www.powercommander.com/powercommand..._downloads.aspx

[dlaing]

NO, dlang was assuming you had a custom map made and then reset the TPS to the correct value, I believe. The TPS should be set to the correct value(sounds like you have done that) and then the fuel map tuned to make the bike run correctly. Sounds like your map is close but needs to be adjusted in the upper revs. You can adjust it yourself with the software that comes with the PC or you(or someone you know) might blend both maps together into one. As said, a custom map is prefered but may not be possible at the moment.

No, I was agreeing with his guess that the downloaded maps were done by people who were not careful enough to set the TPS to 150mV ±5mV.

But that came across as bad advice and you are correct that the TPS should be set to the correct value and the map made to work better, rather than trying to match incorrect TPS settings so that the map works, if even possible.