YOUR V11 DOESN'T HAVE A CHOKE!

[Guest ratchethack]

Have you got any other mono- or bi-syllabic term for the little lever on the left handlebar that functions like a choke did on a motorcycle w/ carbs that's just been started & is having trouble ticking over on a cold engine?

I'm afraid I don't have another name for wot it is, Skeeve -- since it doesn't function like a choke a-tall, for lack of a need to -- as I b'lieve I've made clear above?? Do four syllables (idle advance) present a problem??

[Guest frankdugo]

widget ain't bad.how bout "that thing you do when it's cold out"?

[coz1100]

"Fast Idel: ECU takes care of the AFR you just make the idle increase"

 

 

hate to quote my self but...............

 

ciao

Z

[Skeeve]

I'm afraid I don't have another name for wot it is, Skeeve -- since it doesn't function like a choke a-tall, for lack of a need to -- as I b'lieve I've made clear above?? Do four syllables (idle advance) present a problem??

 

Yes. Too much typing, esp. when everyone knows what we're talking about. Think of "choke" as shorthand for what we-all-know-what-it-really-is...

[Steve G.]

Gents!

 

My choice of pet peeves today is none other than one o' the many perennial ignorance/confusions that gets passed around, encouraged, promoted, and proliferated so often here, and elsewhere. <_>

 

Yes, it's time once again to harpoon another great walloping delusion.

 

My objective this morning is to end this particular foolishness here and now -- at least for the time being. Anyone with the most basic understanding of engine operation theory already knows this, but if you don't -- well, I reckon you're long overdue, and there's no time like the present!

 

And no, Binky -- it's not merely a matter of a simple difference in choice of terminology!

 

Coupla things.

 

1. This can't be re-stated enough, IMHO. Your V11 doesn't have a choke. Chokes are found on carburetors. Your V11 doesn't have one o' those, either. Nor does your car, unless you drive a "vintage" auto of some sort. Your V11 has a lever on the LH handlebar for the purpose of advancing the throttle. This does the same thing as the twist grip on the RH side, but is limited to low throttle openings, and has the advantage of allowing you to "set" it for a period of time while your motor warms up, as opposed to being a "dead man's control" that returns automatically, the way the twist-grip throttle does.

 

2. Your V11 has Fuel Injection and Throttle Bodies in place of carburetors. This technological advancement is a serious leap beyond the practical limitations of carburetors. Your V11 doesn't need a choke -- and that's a good thing. In a reversal of such historic evolutionary trends as multi-valve, OHC and DOHC motors, which for the most part first became the "norm" with moto's long before such concepts became "mainstream" on auto's (bypassing the V11 altogether ), thanks mostly to chasing achievement of better mileage along with performance, the achievement of superior fuel atomization of FI came to moto's far later than it came to auto's -- and for the most part, despite the fact that lots of the aforementioned "advanced technology" skipped over the V11, "allowing" the V11 to remain fundamentally rooted in the relatively crude engine technology of pushrod operated valves, hemispherical heads, and air cooling of a half century ago -- but we can be (arguably) thankful that at least we got FI!

 

Now then.

 

Take a gander at this here garden variety side-draft carb (see immediately below). Wot y'er looking at (the butterfly valve labeled "Choke Plate") is -- astoundingly enough -- a choke. Bears a rather striking resemblance to the butterfly THROTTLE PLATE in your V11's throttle bodies, doesn't it? Yet it could hardly be more different in function, and doesn't work the same way, a-tall!

 

 

Significantly, chokes on carburetors are located UPSTREAM of the fuel jets in the incoming air flow, whereas your throttle butterfly (or slide, as the case may be) is located farther DOWNSTREAM, either at, or past the point where fuel enters the air stream via the fuel jets. The choke functions to CHOKE OFF air flow when the motor is cranked to start. This creates a higher relative vacuum in the atomization chamber behind the venturi (constriction in carburetor bore), when the motor is cranked to start, rapidly drawing fuel up though the idle circuit and idle jet from the float bowl, and allowing the starting air charge to pick up that fuel and fling relatively large, crude droplets of fuel into the center of the incoming air charge concentrated by the venturi. Poor atomization, but usually "good enough" to get things started so that once rev's build after it's started, and the choke is opened, the device provides fairly adequate atomization of fuel. Pretty crude, eh? Yet this is wot allows carbureted motors far far easier starting than trying to coax that fuel up from the float bowl without the assistance of a choke! Thank Mr. Bernoulli for his contributions to the practical Physics involved in carburetors (there's y'er Italian connection). The "Bernoulli effect" that carburetors depend upon to operate (topic for another discussion) can't happen at the low airflow speeds of starting rev's -- hence the need for the choke.

 

All of the above silliness is obviated entirely on the V11 by fuel injectors, which direct fuel under pressure via a precisely metered (via the ECU) "pulse width" signal worth of far more finely atomized fuel directly into the intake, downstream of the throttle bodies. Makes for relatively quick startups in any weather, at any ambient condition, compared to the relatively finicky carburetor, not to mention allowing the ECU to more accurately regulate the fuel charge by such variables as operating temperature, throttle position, and pre-mapped ignition timing curves -- theoretically without dribbling any fuel anywhere, and most certainly without a choke!

 

Hope this helps.

 

-- Cdr. Hatchracket, Crusty Curmudgeon, thankful enough to have 3 vehicles WITHOUT carburetors and chokes, and lots o' crude garden equipment and such (as well as one moto) with them.

 

Must have been another slow day at work, hey Ratch!

Actually, I've ridden dozens of other EFI equipped bikes besides the V11, as well as other V11's. The crude EFI on the V11 is the best of the bunch. That said, i've got 6 other bikes with carbs, and, 3 of those have better 'use characteristics' than any EFI equipped bike I've ever ridden. Honestly!

Steve

[Skeeve]

i've got 6 other bikes with carbs, and, 3 of those have better 'use characteristics' than any EFI equipped bike I've ever ridden. Honestly!

 

Bernoulli never sleeps...

[mike wilson]

€£$1 Prize Fund

to the first person who can prove Ratchet wrong.

 

C'mon, nothing's impossible.

 

 

The Bernoulli effect occurs at any velocity. It's just not powerful enough to do the work of lifting the fuel at low ones.

 

I'll take my prize in gold or diamonds, please.

[Guest ratchethack]

The "Bernoulli effect" that carburetors depend upon to operate (topic for another discussion) can't happen at the low airflow speeds of starting rev's -- hence the need for the choke.

The Bernoulli effect occurs at any velocity. It's just not powerful enough to do the work of lifting the fuel at low ones.

 

I'll take my prize in gold or diamonds, please.

Why, it appears that Mike has me dead to rights, BFG.

 

I b'lieve this means you're obligated to cough up.

[orangeokie]

Since were on the subject. My bike seems to have a little of a high idle after the winter. It always idled at about 900 now it about 1800. I checked to see if the high idle lever is stuck nope throttle cables are also free and go back to the proper stop. Has anyone else had this problem

 

Thanks

Brent

 

 

There should be some idle screws on the side of the carburator with which you can adjust your idle.

[Guest ratchethack]

Good point, Orange jokie.

. . .Too much typing, esp. when everyone knows what we're talking about. Think of "choke" as shorthand for what we-all-know-what-it-really-is...

I reckon no one will mind the use of "carb" when referring to throttle bodies, either. It's monosyllabic, it's ever so much easier to type, and of course everyone knows wot we really mean when we refer to "carbs" on a V11 -- um, don't they?

[jtucker]

I'm confused now... can somebody tell me on which side of my Guzzi's steering wheel does the choke lever reside?

 

Also, can someone tell me if Guzzis are still having problems with their solenoids?

 

__Jason

[Guest ratchethack]

. . .can someone tell me if Guzzis are still having problems with their solenoids?

 

__Jason

Yep. Premature sacking of the solenoids can be a problem.

 

Ditto the outside needle bearing in the "floating" differential. They're notorious for going dry.

[Dan M]

Fine, we don't have a "choke lever" on the bars. And Brits don't carry around "electric torches" either, since a torch is a stick w/ an open flame at the end. Have you got any other mono- or bi-syllabic term for the little lever on the left handlebar that functions like a choke did on a motorcycle w/ carbs that's just been started & is having trouble ticking over on a cold engine? 'Cause we're using that little knob, lever, whatchamajigger like it was a choke lever, so it just kinda pops out that way when speaking or writing about it, even tho' everyone already knows it's a "fast-idle widget."

 

 

More syllables but "cold start lever" seems to be accurate. It is funny how "choke" became one of those misnomers just because people are used to it. BMW uses the same fast idle lever and it even has the universal symbol for a choke on it (/) Even idle enrichment levers on carb bikes have the choke symbol when nothing is being choked. I guess no one has come up with a universal symbol for fast idle or cold start

[jtucker]

Ditto the outside needle bearing in the "floating" differential. They're notorious for going dry.

 

I upgraded mine to a limited slip differential. That way, if the rear wheel slips, power will transfer to the rear wheel that still has traction.

 

Works flawlessly.

 

__Jason

[Guest ratchethack]

OUTSTANDING, Jason! Why, every Guzzi differential should be upgraded to limited slip, aka posi-traction!