More SG oil info

[savagehenry]

I read in a popular oil write up (found at XS11.com) that the best overall performer in M/C oils turned out to be Mobil 1 synth. Now I have also found this, as I was searching for a SG rated motor oil, from the Mobil1.com site;

 

" Ask Mobil

Using an SM-Rated Oil When an SG-Rating is Recommended

Ask Your Stickiest Question. . . Or ask us something you’ve always wanted to know about using our products. We’ll sort through all the submissions and present the best questions to our automotive experts. The questions, and their answers, will post right here on the site.

 

Question:

Using an SM-Rated Oil When an SG-Rating is Recommended

I just purchased a '92 Corvette and after changing the oil to Mobil 1 Extended Performance I noticed on the hood that it recommends an oil with the API rating of SG. After looking at the empty container it does not have this rating. Is this safe for my vehicle?

-- Larry Morgan, Auburndale, FL

 

Answer:

API ratings are backward compatible to previous generation ratings. This means that an API SM quality oil, which is the latest API rating, is recommended where API SL, SJ, SH, SG were originally required."

 

Any thoughts/ comments from the Peanut gallery?

[tmcafe]

I read in a popular oil write up (found at XS11.com) that the best overall performer in M/C oils turned out to be Mobil 1 synth. Now I have also found this, as I was searching for a SG rated motor oil, from the Mobil1.com site;

 

" Ask Mobil

Using an SM-Rated Oil When an SG-Rating is Recommended

Ask Your Stickiest Question. . . Or ask us something you’ve always wanted to know about using our products. We’ll sort through all the submissions and present the best questions to our automotive experts. The questions, and their answers, will post right here on the site.

 

Question:

Using an SM-Rated Oil When an SG-Rating is Recommended

I just purchased a '92 Corvette and after changing the oil to Mobil 1 Extended Performance I noticed on the hood that it recommends an oil with the API rating of SG. After looking at the empty container it does not have this rating. Is this safe for my vehicle?

-- Larry Morgan, Auburndale, FL

 

Answer:

API ratings are backward compatible to previous generation ratings. This means that an API SM quality oil, which is the latest API rating, is recommended where API SL, SJ, SH, SG were originally required."

 

Any thoughts/ comments from the Peanut gallery?

In a test of motorcycle oils done by Sport Rider a few years ago, Mobil 1 ranked very high in most categories (that test may still be online).

[Greg Field]

Tain't so, tonto.

[dlaing]

Oh cool, another lube thread.

For my dry clutched, catalytic convertor free bike, an oil high ZDDP would be ideal.

Some say friction modifiers are bad for Guzzis. I am not sure about that.

I think modifiers such as ZDDP and Moly are not harmful, but I am certainly open to proof that they are harmful.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorO...Motor_Oils.aspx

has a link to PDF showing the ZDDP levels of Mobil products.

The non-SM rated 4T and the V-Twin clearly have more ZDDP than the SM-rated Mobil products.

If I had a catalytic convertor I might be concerned, but since I don't, I'll go for an oil with lots of ZDDP and no SM rating.

I can't think of a fully synthetic motorcycle that would not be good enough.

Some diesel oils would be fine if you could find a W50.

An auto oil might be fine if you add more ZDDP.

Just my opinon, not based on experimenting with fleets or anything more valid than reading oil threads and charts...

[tmcafe]

I read in a popular oil write up (found at XS11.com) that the best overall performer in M/C oils turned out to be Mobil 1 synth. Now I have also found this, as I was searching for a SG rated motor oil, from the Mobil1.com site;

 

" Ask Mobil

Using an SM-Rated Oil When an SG-Rating is Recommended

Ask Your Stickiest Question. . . Or ask us something you’ve always wanted to know about using our products. We’ll sort through all the submissions and present the best questions to our automotive experts. The questions, and their answers, will post right here on the site.

 

Question:

Using an SM-Rated Oil When an SG-Rating is Recommended

I just purchased a '92 Corvette and after changing the oil to Mobil 1 Extended Performance I noticed on the hood that it recommends an oil with the API rating of SG. After looking at the empty container it does not have this rating. Is this safe for my vehicle?

-- Larry Morgan, Auburndale, FL

 

Answer:

API ratings are backward compatible to previous generation ratings. This means that an API SM quality oil, which is the latest API rating, is recommended where API SL, SJ, SH, SG were originally required."

 

Any thoughts/ comments from the Peanut gallery?

Sorry to go back on this, but I misread your question. I guess anywhere where you don't see SG, at least for motorcycles, it means the SM doesn't meet SG. But maybe it's different for cars. Why would they make Mobil 1 for motorcycles that meets SG? I would say that to be safe, if an earlier rating I need isn't mentioned, I wouldn't use that oil. Even if Luigi tells me I can...

 

And of course I was thinking of Mobil 1 for motorcycles that tested very well (Amsoil is bragging about that test since their motorcycle oils came pretty much on top). Mobil 1 was just about as good in many respects.

[Greg Field]

Most car engines do not have "flat" (parens indicate that the tappets are not really flat) tappets like a Guzzi. For these car engines, the newer oils are better in every way. They are not better in every way for your Guzzi. Which engines do you think these car-oil companies are formulating their oils for: your Guzzi or some Toyota or Honda? We (Moto I) are seeing a lot of very worn camshafts and tappets lately . . .

[rocker59]

Also from Mobil-1:

 

Okay. Let's start with Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W-40.

 

*What does it offer that Mobil 1 for cars does not?

 

Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W-40 is designed for sport bikes. Most of these bikes have multi-cylinder/multi-valve engines and use a common sump, which means the engine oil lubricates the engine, transmission and wet clutch. So unlike Mobil 1 for cars, Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W-40 has no friction modifiers, which could lead to clutch slippage.

 

The motorcycle oil also has more phosphorus/zinc for enhanced wear protection at high engine speeds and high loads.

 

In addition, Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W-40 has a high performance dispersant/detergent technology for better high-temperature performance and engine cleanliness. Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W-40 is also offered in a different viscosity grade than Mobil 1 for passenger cars. (Updated December 2007)

 

 

 

**What about Mobil 1 V-Twin oil? How is that different from Mobil 1 for passenger cars?

 

Mobil 1 V-Twin oil is designed for air-cooled, large-displacement bikes. Because of their design, these engines can generate very high localized oil temperatures and high overall bulk-oil temperatures.

 

As you know, a typical air-cooled V-twin's rear cylinder gets a lot hotter than the front cylinder – it's a matter of airflow. When it's hot out and you're stuck in traffic, the oil temperature in your bike climbs rapidly. Above about 250°F, conventional motor oil is going to break down. Mobil 1 V-Twin synthetic oil is good to above 300°F.

 

Like Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W-40, Mobil 1 V-Twin has high levels of phosphorus/zinc and the same high-temperature detergent technology for superior wear protection and engine cleanliness, even at elevated oil temperatures.

 

With Mobil 1 V-Twin oil, you can go the full length of the manufacturer's recommended oil change intervals with ease.

 

 

For peace of mind and added protection. You pay a lot for a bike these days, so why risk running your engine in ordinary oil? Just like Mobil 1 synthetic oil for cars, Mobil 1 synthetic motorcycle oil helps keep your engine clean – free from varnish and deposits – and smooth running mile after mile, no matter what conditions you ride in.

 

Mobil 1 benefits engine life and performance. In fact, the lubrication capability of Mobil 1 motorcycle oil helps maintain peak horsepower and acceleration throughout the life of your engine. And with Mobil 1 you can go the full 5,000 miles between oil changes.

 

So, if you want to ride your bike long and hard and not be concerned about the oil, choose Mobil 1 motorcycle oil.

[Steve G.]

Also from Mobil-1:

 

 

Next time you see a product line up of Mobil oils, you will see different colored caps. Last I checked, black caps were bike oils. NOT Blue or red.

Steve

 

And yes, there most definitely are differences.

And I can't wait for Mr. Roper's visit, to entertain with waxing poetic stances on the qualities of fermented Yak sweat being good enough for the mighty MG big block.

[tmcafe]

Most car engines do not have "flat" (parens indicate that the tappets are not really flat) tappets like a Guzzi. For these car engines, the newer oils are better in every way. They are not better in every way for your Guzzi. Which engines do you think these car-oil companies are formulating their oils for: your Guzzi or some Toyota or Honda? We (Moto I) are seeing a lot of very worn camshafts and tappets lately . . .

Yes, I remember a recent post about lots of bikes being brought in at Moto I. lately with worn tappets and camshafts. That's why until somebody figures out exactly how the non-SG new m/c oils stack up against the SG ones, I'll stay away from non-SG in my bike. I understand that MI also chose to stick with SG although Luigi/Piaggio may say "SG or higher". Maybe that applies to ACEA ratings ...

[belfastguzzi]

If you don't mind, I'm moving some content here from the other thread, where I brought up the SG and ACEA stuff.

 

None of this is to contradict what Greg said about Mobil, car lube, SG necessity etc. I'm just trying to get a better grasp of it and connect the info to what is actually available in the shops. I'm also interested to see if differences in USA and Euro specs mean that an oil may be suitable in UK / Europe, when stuff with the same name is not right in America: or are there factors that mean it's fundamentally not right despite what some of the letters appear to be saying?

 

So, 1) what SG oils have people found, that are generally available?

2) Any 10w-60 stuff?

 

Re-post, with a few more bits

 

There is a recent thread where Greg explains the necessity of SG oil. I can't find it. Doing a search for any particular oil thread is a bit like looking for a little black thing in a dirty oil sump. This one will have to do.

 

Where have people found SG oil in the UK? 10w-60 is the stuff that the Griso uses.

 

AGIP

does Racing 10-60 SG – if you can find it. MG says that the Griso needs this.

 

In the thread that I was looking for, Grossohc said that he was going to Halfords for SG(?) at a more reasonable price.

I did have Halfords synthetic, SG rated, so I went there this afternoon to get some more.

Of course, it's SJ now! Their oils are all SJ or SL.

There was nothing at SG.

There were no 10w-60s either.

 

CASTROL

I see on the web there is a Castrol R4 Superbike 10w-50 fully synthetic 4 stroke motorcycle engine oil, API SG, JASO MA.

 

This may be old hat in the USA. Looking out for SG grade oil, the latest that I've seen in the shops here is Yamaha's own:

 

YAMALUBE

 

4-FS 4-Stroke Engine Oil

Fully Synthetic

15W-50 API SG

JASO MA

 

1L bottle is £9.99

 

SILKOLENE

 

Motorcycle lube:

Silkolene Pro 4 Plus 10w/50

API SF & SG, JASO MA, CCMC G5

Same price: about £10

 

MOBIL

 

I looked again at Mobil 1 (car oil) to see what ACEA rating it has.

The 15w-50 Motorsport fully synth says:

ACEA A3/B3/B4

 

It is API SJ/SL/SM/CF

 

"Mobil 1 15W-50 is also recommended for older valve train designs that may benefit from a higher level of anti-wear normally not required for newer generation vehicles. Mobil 1 15W-50 will also provide better anti-wear protection for higher valve spring tensions in certain racing engines."

 

(The bike oil is Mobil 1 Racing 4T 15W-50

API SH JASO MA

Anyone know what ACEA specs are on it?)

 

PENRITE

 

I've looked up Penrite, 'cos P.R. uses this.

He has a 10W-70! I associate Penrite with old classics.

 

I don't see the 10w-70: maybe it hasn't made it to the UK yet.

There is the following info though. Looks like it's saying that the 50/60/70 oils do have higher phosphorous, because the limit only applies to the lower number weight range? – OUTSIDE of USA anyway– I read similar elsewhere.

The 10W-70 is an SM.

Note the classification: ACEA A2/A3 with B2/B3 or B4 performance levels. So maybe, in Europe, Australia..., SL and SM are good, if they show ACEA A2/A3 with B2/B3 or B4?

Hmm... see next post

[belfastguzzi]

ACEA A2/A3 with B2/B3 or B4 Quote from Penrite info >>

There have been a number of articles and we have heard comments from various “expert” commentators regarding the more recent API specifications and their impact on older petrol engined vehicles. Unfortunately there is a lot of mis-information out there and also contradictory information as to what can and cannot be used in older vehicles.

 

The focus has been on zinc, or more correctly, ZDTP (zinc di-thiophosphate). For many years this has been the anti wear additive of choice as it is the most cost effective (and one of the most effective) chemistry to use. Also incorrectly described as an extreme pressure additive, its primary role is to prevent wear in the rings and in the valve train (cams, tappets, valve stems etc) of the engine.

 

When you add ZDTP you also add phosphorus. This is a catalyst poison and there have been limits on it since the days of API SH (1994) when a 0.12% limit was imposed. Prior to that, in the days of API SG (1989) many manufacturers already had put a 0.10% limit on phosphorus. So, “low” phosphorus has been with us for quite some time.

 

In effect, an engine oil that contains about 0.1% phosphorus or higher, will easily provide the required anti wear properties for older engines and in fact ones at around 0.07% will do the job very nicely. As a rule of thumb, zinc content is about 10% higher than the phosphorus content but there are some variances occasioanally.

 

Within these changes was the incorporation of friction modifiers. The early ones were very active and did cause oil consumption in older engines. These days, technology is well advanced and this no longer is the case.

 

Now we have API SM – for the first time, the limit on phosphorus is from 0.06-0.08%. There are industry concerns about the applicability of these oils in older engines. However, the limit only applies to 0W-20, 0W-30, 5W-20, 5W-30 and 10W-30 oils (so called “ILSAC” grades, GF-4). Any other grades are exempt from this. In the US though the same additive tends to get used all the way from 0W-20 to 20W-50 as as a result, the new low phosphorus SM/GF-4 packs find their way into older engines. This is why many of the "beware of no zinc" papers and articles are coming from the US.

 

There is one other factor with non-ILSAC oil grades. If they also have the European ACEA A2/A3 with B2/B3 or B4 performance levels, phosphorus levels will also be at 0.10 % to 0.12% as their tests have been more severe than the API for some time. Hence an oil that is SL (SM)/CF/A3/B3 also well exceeds the anti-wear requirements for older engines.

 

The irony is that API SF and SG oils formulated in recent years usually have phosphorus contents of around 0.08% (usually 0.1% maximum) anyway due to other advances in technology, unless the blender chooses to add extra additive.

 

This brings us to diesel oils.

 

Currently, they have no phosphorus limits – as such many people recommend them for older cars, even though many others say that the detergent levels are too high and the engine will use oil. Well, you cannot have it both ways. This one originated from the USA and hence did not take into account European ACEA standard petrol engine oils, which are easy to find in Australia, NZ and Europe, but a lot harder to find in North America.

[belfastguzzi]

SOME EXPLANATION OF THE CATEGORIES, WHICH I HAVE FOUND. I can’t vouch for anything here being 100% correct or being what it seems – but until anyone says otherwise, I’ve no reason to doubt it. This must have been written before SM was introduced.

 

PI = American Petroleum Institute

S = Service - Petrol Engine Performance

C = Commercial - Diesel Engine Performance

 

PETROL

 

SG - Introduced 1989 has much more active dispersant to combat black sludge.

 

SH - Introduced 1993 has same engine tests as SG, but includes phosphorus limit 0.12%, together with control of foam, volatility and shear stability.

 

SJ - Introduced 1996 has the same engine tests as SG/SH, but phosphorus limit 0.10% together with variation on volatility limits

 

SL - Introduced 2001, all new engine tests reflective of modern engine designs meeting current emmissions standards

 

DIESEL

 

CD - Introduced 1955, international standard for turbo diesel engine oils for many years, uses single cylinder test engine only

 

CE - Introduced 1984, improved control of oil consumption, oil thickening, piston deposits an wear, uses additional multi cylinder test engines

 

CF4 - Introduced 1990, further improvements in control of oil consumption and piston deposits, uses low emmission test engine

 

CF - Introduced 1994, modernised version of CD, reverts to single cylinder low emission test engine. Intended for certain indirect injection engines

 

CF2 - Introduced 1994, defines effective control of cylinder deposits and ring face scuffing, intended for 2 stroke diesel engines

 

CG4 - Introduced 1994, development of CF4 giving improved control of piston deposits, wear, oxidation stability and soot entrainment. Uses low sulphur diesel fuel in engine tests

 

CH4 - Introduced 1998, development of CG4, giving further improvements in control of soot related wear and piston deposits, uses more comprehensive engine test program to include low and high sulphur fuelsSG - Introduced 1989 has much more active dispersant to combat black sludge.

 

ACEA Specifications

(Association des Constructeurs Europeens d Automobiles)

 

ACEA ratings are prefixed with A for petrol, B for light or passenger car diesel and E for heavy duty diesel.

 

The current specifications are:

 

A1 Fuel economy petrol

A2 Standard performance level

A3 High performance and/or extended drain

A4 Reserved for future use in certain direct injection engines

A5 Combines A1 fuel economy with A3 performance

 

B1 Fuel economy diesel

B2 Standard performance level

B3 High performance and/or extended drain

B4 For direct injection car diesel engines

B5 Combines B1 fuel economy with B3/B4 performance

 

E1 Non-turbocharged light duty diesel engines

E2 Standard performance level

E3 High performance and extended drain

E4 Higher performance and longer extended drain

E5 High performance and long drain plus API performances

 

Basestock categories and descriptions

 

All oils are comprised of basestocks and additives. Basestocks make up the majority of the finished product and represent between 75-95%.

 

Not all basestocks are derived from petroleum, in fact the better quality ones are synthetics made in laboratories by chemists specifically designed for the application for which they are intended.

 

Basestocks are classified in 5 Groups as follows:

 

Group I

 

These are derived from petroleum and are the least refined. These are used in a small amount of automotive oils where the applications are not demanding.

 

Group II

 

These are derived from petroleum and are mainly used in mineral automotive oils. Their performance is acceptable with regards to wear, thermal stability and oxidation stability but not so good at lower temperatures.

 

Group III

 

These are derived from petroleum but are the most refined of the mineral oil basestocks. They are not chemically engineered like synthetics but offer the highest level of performance of all the petroleum basestocks. They are also known as “hydrocracked” or “molecularly modified” basestocks.

They are usually labelled/marketed as synthetic or semi-synthetic oils and make up a very high percentage of the oils retailed today.

 

Group IV

 

These are polyalphaolefins known as PAO and are chemically manufactured rather than being dug out of the ground. These basestocks have excellent stability in both hot and cold temperatures and give superior protection due to their uniform molecules.

 

Group V

 

These special basestocks are also chemically engineered but are not PAO.

The main types used in automotive oils are diesters and polyolesters. Like the group IV basestocks they have uniform molecules and give superior performance and protection over petroleum basestocks. These special stocks are used in all aviation engines due to their stability and durability. Esters are also polar (electro statically attracted to metal surfaces) which has great benefits. They are usually blended with Group IV stocks rather than being used exclusively.

 

It is common practice for oil companies to blend different basestocks to achieve a certain specification, performance or cost. The blending of group IV and V produces lubricants with the best overall performance which cannot be matched by any of the petroleum basestock groups.

[tmcafe]

Belfastguzzi,

 

Thanks for the very interesting info. If that's the case, it would mean for instance that:

 

SH is better than SG ?

 

Then why would top shelf m/c oils still put SG on their labels? (e.g., Amsoil, Mobil 1). Is it just to reassure us paranoid antisocial riders, that the anti-wear stuff is there as it should be? (btw, Wally carries some cheap-ass SH-rated oil for "high-mileage vehicles).

 

Also why is it that the oils with higher API ratings, like SM, do not meet SG, or even SH for that matter? The other issue would be that even though the low-viscosity grades are the only ones that need to meet low-zinc/phosphorus requirement, what guarantees that other grades will have normal levels?

 

For now I have a stock of good SG-rated m/c oil that will last maybe 4-5 more oil changes. But I'm curious what will happen with ACEA, API, JASO, and SG. We're probably more concerned than Luigi...

[belfastguzzi]

Belfastguzzi,

 

Thanks for the very interesting info. If that's the case, it would mean for instance that:

 

SH is better than SG ?

 

Then why would top shelf m/c oils still put SG on their labels? (e.g., Amsoil, Mobil 1). Is it just to reassure us paranoid antisocial riders, that the anti-wear stuff is there as it should be? (btw, Wally carries some cheap-ass SH-rated oil for "high-mileage vehicles).

 

Also why is it that the oils with higher API ratings, like SM, do not meet SG, or even SH for that matter? The other issue would be that even though the low-viscosity grades are the only ones that need to meet low-zinc/phosphorus requirement, what guarantees that other grades will have normal levels?

 

For now I have a stock of good SG-rated m/c oil that will last maybe 4-5 more oil changes. But I'm curious what will happen with ACEA, API, JASO, and SG. We're probably more concerned than Luigi...

Greg explained why SH and following aren't 'better' than SG (they're 'different' and I suppose better for most cars) which is why I was looking for the other post that I couldn't find.

I think it was primarily because of the reduction in phosphorous and maybe also because other additives aren't good for our motors.

If it's JUST because of the phosphorous – then clearly it's not straightforward. SG is not a solid guarantee of correct or highest phosphorous / zinc concentrations, it seems.

There must be other factors.

[dlaing]

Repsol Moto Racing 4T 10W/50

 

Description

Full synthetic lubricant especially formulated for use in four stroke motorcycles in the most demanding

conditions, such as is required in high competition racing. It has been developed in collaboration with

some competition teams.

 

Technical Specifications

• SAE Grade 10W/50

• Density at 15ºC (ASTM D-1298) 0,889

• Viscosity at 100ºC cSt. (ASTM D-445) 17,2

• Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270) 160

• Flash Point ºC min. (ASTM D-92) 215

• Pour Point ºC max. (ASTM D-97) -42

• Noack volatility, 1 h. 250º C (DIN-51581) 13

• TBN, mg KOH/g (ASTM D-2896)

8

• Sulphated Ash, % wt. (ASTM D-874) 0,9

 

Quality level

 

ß API: SJ

ß JASO T 903-98 (D) Type MA

ß HONDA SPEC.