Kick stand, broken casting

[EnduroGuzzi]

So I go to park my o4 Lemans when I notice the kickstand appears to wobble. Since I had it off awhile ago to install a sloper I thought perhaps one of the fasteners had loosened up. Upon closer inspection I see that the upper sump casting has broken around the radius of the bolt that pins the sidestand to the casting.

 

I've always been suspect of the kickstand setup on spine frames, but 3 previous examples were fine.

 

Does anyone know what aluminum these are cast out of? Any chance of a ghetto welding repair?

 

I figure with the Euro/$ exchange this part will probably be $500.

 

Welcome to Monday!

[Slavomir Musilek (R.I.P.)]

So I go to park my o4 Lemans when I notice the kickstand appears to wobble. Since I had it off awhile ago to install a sloper I thought perhaps one of the fasteners had loosened up. Upon closer inspection I see that the upper sump casting has broken around the radius of the bolt that pins the sidestand to the casting.

 

I've always been suspect of the kickstand setup on spine frames, but 3 previous examples were fine.

 

Does anyone know what aluminum these are cast out of? Any chance of a ghetto welding repair?

 

I figure with the Euro/$ exchange this part will probably be $500.

 

Welcome to Monday!

 

you mean the part between oil sump and engine block? That one costed me 320 bucks...

[EnduroGuzzi]

"you mean the part between oil sump and engine block? That one costed me 320 bucks..."

 

 

Yes sir, that's the one. 320? not as bad as I thought, bad enough though, thanks.

[Guest ratchethack]

EG, sorry to hear about this. To my knowledge, yours would be the first of any reported problems related to mounting the Roper Slopper. As you know, (but for the benefit of someone reading who may not) since the plate adds 2 mm plus the compressed thickness of an additional gasket to the vertical dimension between upper and lower side stand mounting bolts, it presents a small challenge to re-mount the side stand. Greg Field has used the Dremel hole-elongation technique. Your post has me concerned about the strength of the sump spacer casting. I simply shortened the lower spacer on the small side-stand mounting bolt, torqued the lower bolt up and finished by torquing the 20 mm head of the upper bolt home, which put the forged steel casting of the side stand in tension, slightly flexed. I liked this because it put the side stand at a surprisingly more favorable angle to support the bike, but it probably also puts more of a strain on the sump spacer casting as well.

 

IMHO the sump spacer should be easily enough welded up stronger than it was to start with. But this leaves the Q about wot caused the failure in the first place? Depending on how you solved the 2+ mm dimension challenge, therein may lie the answer?

 

Enquiring minds. . . (well, you know)

[EnduroGuzzi]

I too had performed the hole elongation trick with the dremel. Upon completion the bolt went through the newely elongated KS assembly and threaded properly, no forcing necessary. It could have been slightly mis-aligned, but I would think threading into the casting would still be difficult. Additionally, I ride that bike on more crappy gravel, dirt, rock roads than most (I believe) and I may have taken a rock hit without noticing it.

 

Does anyone still carry the V11 belly pans (chin spoilers)?

[Ryland3210]

I have designed and installed monitoring and control systems to the die casting industry for many years, right up to the present. That includes Italy, by the way. Welding is considered impossible because of the porosity inherent in the process. The exception are the castings produced by the vacuum based Alcoa/Audi Aluminum Intensive Vehicle Program, which I supplied the process systems for.

 

There is a chance welding will work, but you have to be very lucky that the area is porosity free.

[jhh]

Does anyone still carry the V11 belly pans (chin spoilers)?

 

This one? http://www.tlm.nl/magazijn/webshop/detail.html?aid=2469

[Daniel Cooper]

Can't you just fabricate one in steel with a welder, saw, grinder and files ?

[Guest ratchethack]

There is a chance welding will work, but you have to be very lucky that the area is porosity free.

FWIW, I've seen many moto engine castings welded without problem. Not that it's always 100% trouble free, but it's been successfully done countless times. I've had a few chain cases welded without any prob wotso. Probably the most dubious quality alloy engine case I've ever owned was a Bultaco Pursang. The Spanish castings of the day were known for poor quality, dubious consistency, and voids. I had a set of cases on it redesigned for an upgraded barrel with huge transfer ports. Extensive buildout of the castings by welding, roughly hogged out on the inside by a Pro, and finished up with files and "rifflers' to match the new barrel by Yours Truly. The heat warped 'em up something fierce, but planed smooth again, it worked flawlessly with no apparent porosity problems.

[Tom M]

FWIW, I've seen many moto engine castings welded without problem. Not that it's always 100% trouble free, but it's been successfully done countless times. I've had a few chain cases welded without any prob wotso. Probably the most dubious quality alloy engine case I've ever owned was a Bultaco Pursang. The Spanish castings of the day were known for poor quality, dubious consistency, and voids. I had a set of cases on it redesigned for an upgraded barrel with huge transfer ports. Extensive buildout of the castings by welding, roughly hogged out on the inside by a Pro, and finished up with files and "rifflers' to match the new barrel by Yours Truly. The heat warped 'em up something fierce, but planed smooth again, it worked flawlessly with no apparent porosity problems.

 

I've had cases welded before too. It's certainly worth a try before springing for a new part.

[Skeeve]

FWIW, I've seen many moto engine castings welded without problem.

 

Or even brazing, if the break on the casting was a clean one & all pieces are still to hand...

[badmotogoozer]

There is a guy here in Vancouver who repairs Lambo cases. When the owner cracks thier engine/trans a re & re at the Lambo dealer is several thousand$. He welds them up in place, on the car. One of the few who can, and he makes a couple grand every time he does one.

 

Unlikely you will find someone of his caliber but once removed and cleaned (very, very well) a good welder should be able to repair it. certainly worth the effort.

[Ryland3210]

Thanks, Ratch for the useful experience. My info. comes from the auto industry. I suppose the aversion to welding die cast aluminum in that case comes from their need to know whether it is a reliable production process. It has to work virtually every time to qualify.

 

Certainly no harm in trying on a one of a kind basis. Be prepared for mini explosions if a local porosity void suddenly blows out of the metal as it softens under heat.

 

Brazing (with a brass alloy by definition) would not apply to aluminum. It's used on higher melting point alloys than aluminum. Aluminum welding rod is the ticket.

 

I had successfully repaired my Norton's engine casing with so-called aluminum epoxy in my early poverty days. When done right, this is a useful method of fixing cracks and leaking castings without resorting to welding. I didn't mention this option before, because I figured the repair had to be far stonger in this case, but while we are on the subject, I thought, why not.

[EnduroGuzzi]

Yes that's the belly pan, hmmm kind of pricey. Thanks for the link. I have someone with an english wheel and some other metal working stuff who I've talked to about a hybrid belly pan/skid plate. We'll see.

 

I've decided to get the upper casting welded, on the bike. Might as well give it a shot. I'll try for this weekend. Regardless of the outcome I promise before and after pics.

 

Thanks for all the advice

[dlaing]

...crappy gravel, dirt, rock roads...

a hybrid belly pan/skid plate.

hmmm? nom de plume: enduro Guzzi... I suspect you would be better off with a Quota or a Stelvio?

But if you stay with the LeMans, make sure you have a good firm suspension, Consider fender extenders, fork guards, ProTaper bars, Enduro boots, and yah, that belly pan/skid plate may be a good idea.

photos appreciated