Hard Starting

[Tomcat]

I've had this bike (2000 V11 Sport) for about a month now and I'm really liking everything about it with one exception, starting. I've been reading posts regarding this problem and so far, I've seen reccomendations from new relays to fuel filters to cycling the on/off switch to holding the throttle open during cranking. Is this a Moto Guzzi issue? I can't understand why a fuel injected engine is having so much difficulty starting cold or starting anytime for that matter. Since I bought this bike used and it has obviously been highly modified, I have been doing some routine maintenance and tuning just for my own peace of mind and to make sure the bike is safe. As part of this process, I have replaced all the fuel lines and the filter. I thought a clogged or dirty filter would be a logical cause of hard starting but after this upgrade, the problem persists. I have also adjusted the valves, changed the plugs and oil and synched the throttle bodies. The bike runs very well in all other aspects except starting. I hear the fuel pump cycle when the run switch is switched on. It runs for a few seconds and then stops. I assume this is because there is sufficient fuel pressure sensed in the system? The battery is in good shape and the starter cranks the engine with no obvious problems. I have the fast idle cable adjusted to get max travel while still having a small gap when off. The bike idles at around 2K when the fast idle is engaged. I've tried cycling the run switch, holding the throttle open 3/8 to 1/2 when cranking and combinations of all the aforementioned. The hard starting persists. I was reading a post about the starting relay possibly having something to do with this. I guess what I'm asking for is a checklist of items that can cause hard starting so I can go through them and hopefully figure this out. I really don't want to have to crank this thing over and over everytime as I'm sure this will severely shorten my battery life. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

 

Tomcat

[rocker59]

Define "hard starting"...

 

How many seconds of cranking does it take?

 

How many attempts at cranking does it take?

 

"battery is in good shape" means what? how old is it?

 

What weight oil are you running? 5w40? 20w50?

[pasotibbs]

Mine has always started easily, it may take a few revolutions to catch but no more than 2 seconds of cranking. The fuel pump is behaving normally so the problem is elsewhere, it could be something as stupid as the temp sensor not working correctly so that the ECU doesn't richen the mixture ?

I would crank it over with the fast idle off and if it shows no sign of life take a plug out to see if its wet with fuel, if there's fuel it could be an electrical issue but as you say the bike runs well once running it seems odd.I suppose corroded connections in the Ign circuit could mean that the coils produce a weak spark while cranking, so thats easy to check while you've got the plug out (I use a jump lead to ground the body of the plug as its easier than trying to hold it against an earth point)

If the plug is dry after cranking then it seems likely that there is a fueling issue of some sort but as you say the bike runs well I can't see the Injection system being faulty so I would be tempted to look at the temp sensor first .

 

These are just some quick ideas, I'm sure someone here will think of some better ones

 

Good Luck

 

Dave

[cycdude6]

I had a similar experience and my problem was the connector to the tps. The female connector slots were opened up by the insertion of wires to read tps voltage and I repaired it by using a pin to tighten up the slots. Another culprit could be the tps or the adjustment of the tps.

Also, if the bike is very lean at idle that could tend to make the bike harder to start. I discovered the lean condition (only at idle on my bike) during a dyno run to setup a power commander. So, richening the idle helped a little too.

John

[Tomcat]

^{Define "hard starting"...}

 

^{How many seconds of cranking does it take?}

 

^{How many attempts at cranking does it take?}

 

^{"battery is in good shape" means what? how old is it?}

 

^{What weight oil are you running? 5w40? 20w50?}

 

1. By hard starting I mean it will not start by normal procedures. If I advance the fast idle to max, turn on the run switch and wait a few seconds for the fuel pump to stop after building pressure, the bike should fire up after a few seconds of cranking, right? This one will not fire up unless you cycle the run switch several times, open the throttle and then crank for several seconds. To further confuse the issue, it doesn't always do this. There have been a few rare occasions when it fired after a few seconds of cranking. I can't really say it always when its cold either because it has been hard to start both warm and cold as well as starting easily in both conditions.

 

2. Usually it will take 5 or more seconds of cranking to get even an attempt to fire. If I do nothing else but put the fast idle on and try to start, I have cranked it as many as 10 times without it firing before I gave up and held the throttle open or cycled the run switch to try to make it fire. I am concerned about running the battery down and/or frying the starter so I haven't cranked it anymore times than this yet. even so, ten attempts without firing up is ridiculous. (I think this answers question 3 also)

 

3. The battery is kept on a battery tender and although I don't have a load tester, from the way it spins the starter, I think it is up to the task. The battery was in the bike when I bought it about a month ago and I haven't seen the need to change it yet since it has been working well. I've had no problems with getting the bike to crank.

 

4. I just changed the oil and am running Castrol 20W50.

[Ouiji Veck]

Mine was an evil mystery to start for a while when I first got it.

Did all the goofy starting tekniques and had symptoms like

yours until I went to world spec. valve adj.

Did you set your valves to Guzzi specs? (too tight)

Ever since I opened the tappets up (30,000 miles ago.) she spins

up exactly the same every time.

One 1.5 second crank @ 1/3 throttle...then another and she's running.

Hope it's that easy for you.

[Mr. Bean]

.... I have cranked it as many as 10 times without it firing before I gave up and held the throttle open ....

 

I don't know about everyone else here...but I ALWAYS crack my throttle open 1/8 to 1/4 inch whenever I start mine, warm or cold and it fires right away everytime. Not sure if I'm reading your statement above right..but you might give that a try?

 

Randy

[Guest ratchethack]

I don't know about everyone else here...but I ALWAYS crack my throttle open 1/8 to 1/4 inch whenever I start mine, warm or cold and it fires right away everytime. Not sure if I'm reading your statement above right..but you might give that a try?

 

Randy

EXACTLY my experience.

 

It took me a couple of days to figure this one out when the bike was new, but it's worked like a Champ ever since.

[Tomcat]

Just went out to the garage and tried the 1/4 throttle while cranking technique and guess what? It fired up in about a second. I'm going to keep using this method if I keep getting those results. I still think its weird that you have to do that on a FI bike, but if that's all it takes to get it started quickly, then that's what I'll do. My valves are adjusted to .004 intake and .006 exhaust by the way. Thanks everyone for your advice and replies. Like I said before, I haven't had this bike for long and I'm figuring this stuff out a little at at time so I really appreciate hearing your experiences. There really is no better source for a solution than hearing from people who have been there and done that. I've waited a long time to get one of these bikes and I'm really stoked to finally have it but this starting thing was bringing me down. I feel much better now. You guys rock!

 

Tomcat

[savagehenry]

Glad to hear of your results. I always roll the throttle open a touch just as I hit the button, starts every time. I would DEFINATELY reset your valves to .006" and .008". Easier starting and more lower end torque are real world riding payoffs! Ride on, S.H.

[rocker59]

My drill is to open the throttle after pushing the starter button.

 

Push starter, then crack the throttle about 1/4 while cranking.

 

Starts every time.

 

Mine has never been like a modern car or newer efi motorcycle where you just touch the starter button and the motor jumps to life. Some throttle has always been required.

[Ouiji Veck]

Yeaaa...

Open the throttle a little...

Open the valves a little....

Let her breathe and she'll be spittin' fire

[Desdinova]

I'm inclined to think "It's a V11 Sport" Guzzi thing.

 

I totally agree that there really is no reason, a motorcycle with an EFI, that you should hear anything more than the click of the switch before it fires up.

 

My LeMans runs like a cat chasing a mouse. Fast, agile and 0 to 60 in nothing flat. It idles at about 1000 rpm's from the time it starts, when it finally starts.

 

I will try the "recycle the starter" method, as I hadn't tried that yet. I usually crack open the throttle, hit the starter. It will start to catch after a couple of seconds, but won't run yet. I do this about three times and usually.... read USUALLY it will start before it's flooded or the battery gets drained. But it does start.

 

I have the VDST software and monitored and tested every aspect. The sensors are working, it gives that "extra burst" at cold start, etc etc etc.. Essentially there is nothing "technically" wrong. It's just hard to start.

 

For comparison, my other starting proceedures.

Victory V92C: (EFI)

Turn key, turn on, pull throttle advance, press starter button with one finger (no throttle). You don't even hear the engine turn, just starts instantly. I leave the throttle advance pulled for about 20-30 seconds before releasing it to a nice 1100rpm idle.

 

'81 Guzzi Convert: (Carbs)

Turn up Choke lever, turn key, turn on, with one finger press starter (no throttle). It will usually do a partial turn then spin up. Kindof sounds like va-vrooommmmmm. and it's running. I then release the choke and keep in idleing with the throttle for about 30 seconds.

 

.02 Silverwing: (EFI)

Turn key, turn on, press start and apply just a little throttle and it catches almost instantly. It does have a digital throttle advance, but nothing the rider has to deal with.

 

.02 Triumph Bonneville America: (Carbs)

Now we don't have this bike anymore, but it was essentially like the Convert. Pull choke, hit starter, but usually had to touch the throttle at the same time and it would spin right up.

 

So... Why are so many of us even having this "hard start" conversation.

 

I had, up until this last search, blamed my LeMans's hard starting on it's modifications. K&N Filter, open airbox, Stucchi Crossover, FBF pipes. Lots of airflow. But after reading everything a search here brings. I don't think that's it. I think it just is what it is. But on a modern bike (of term used loosely) it shouldn't be that way.

[gstallons]

EVERY bike is different. My 87SE either starts on the first cylinder that comes up and hits like a shotgun at 270 and 450 degrees ( a rush I can't describe). If it doesn't you will swear the starter will not have enough to make one more revolution. But it does start.... My K100 starts right up or cranks 5 seconds . The V11 starts right up or has an extended crank time. They are like women: every one and every time is different enough to make you think when you "get on" Remember this and cherish each time it starts , you get what you put into the experience.

 

 

 

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