My new shloppage shleet

[dlaing]

Pete sent me his working copy to bastardize, so after about 8 hours of jigsawing and filing away at the 12? gauge sheet metal that Pete mailed me I came up with this:

The advantage of this design is that you don't need to add a second sump gasket and, if I could get it better sealed, it would work better at lower oil levels.

Of course, some will argue that you should not be running it at lower oil levels, but since that is what I have been doing for over 40K miles, old habits are hard to break, and I don't want to go above the factory recommended 3.5 liters.

As you can see it offers little protection in the front, but should knock down some of the wave action

From the rear, you can see where I was sloppy in making it fit.

I should have started with a better template.

I needed a heavier card stock, something more rigid than what I had.

Maybe next year I'll tighten up around the edges, and make it out of aluminum

[pete roper]

Dave, having lowered the plate you may well find that you'll need to enlarge or change the shape of the dipstick hole. Best to check this before ou whack the sump back on.

 

Secondly I would strongly recommend AGAINST the use of aluminium plate, previous experience with similar trays on the earlier motors has taught me that plates made of aluminium flex in service, fatigue, crack and break up! Yes, you could no doubt keep on increasing the thickness of the plate until this no longer happens but by then any weight advantage would be negligable to non-existant.

 

Pete

[dlaing]

The dipstick hole does rub against the plastic dipstick.

Yah, I caught that too late.

It went in fine as I was working it, but I had to file down some fine adjustment to get the bolt holes to line up, and before you know it I had loctited it down, and it had shifted enough to touch the dipstick.

It still screws in, but you can feel it rubbing.

I am a little concerned the tip of the dipstick will break off due to vibration against the edge of the sheet metal, but I'll take my chances till the the next revision.

That was also a reason I did not want to cut the tolerances too close, fearing the sheet metal might vibrate into an expensive and critical piece....

 

I was wondering about the aluminum and its weight.

Thanks for the advice.

Also, not that it matters much, but I would prefer to save the space in there for air or oil, not metal.

I'll stick to steel.

It is easy to work with, and I don't think it will rust in there.

Besides it makes good ballast!

Thanks again!

[gstallons]

This loks like the "way to go" so far!!!!!!

[Guest ratchethack]

Dave, it'll be somewhat interesting to see how this works out, but IMHO that small triangular piece sort of "hanging out in the breeze" can't possibly be serving any useful purpose, and should be whacked off before you button this up. IMHO a 12 gauge aluminum (or steel) sheet of unknown grade (as Pete notes above) may be expected to have this piece loose under the 'orrific 'urricane force of the usual mass of oil, aka Pete's "great sodding streamers" at 8K RPM, or possibly worse -- bent up into the crank webs for a spectacular production of babbit metal fouling, crank trap filling, shavings.

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV

[gstallons]

Did you draw a pattern on paper so lazy people like me could trace it onto a metal plate??????

[pete roper]

Dave, couple-a things.

 

Fitting the plate where you have is a fine and splendid thing. My guess is that where it is will probably give you closer to the original specified oil capacity and that will give the seals an easier time although to the best of my knowledge there have been no seal failures as a result of my original design? I'm happy to be corrected on that.

 

I WOULD though recommend that if you are using the plate in this location you cut one up that fills in the *bit* at the front that you've removed. While this may not have any real issue as far as rearward movement of oil is concerned the irregularity and lack of support circumfirentially worries me a bit. Whether this worry is justified is of course a matter of conjecture.

 

Finally, before all the usual suspects start getting stuck into me, I'm very, very happy to see people 'Rolling their own' on this issue. I KNOW there is a starvation issue in certain circumstances. I've offered a sollution but I'm more than happy if my design is superceeded and improved upon. If Dave's, or anybody elses, is an improvement I'll be the first to aplaud it. As in most things the real issues are cost and complexity. What we want is the best 'Practical' design. Get yer pens out boys

 

Pete

[dlaing]

Dave, it'll be somewhat interesting to see how this works out, but IMHO that small triangular piece sort of "hanging out in the breeze" can't possibly be serving any useful purpose, and should be whacked off before you button this up. IMHO a 12 gauge aluminum (or steel) sheet of unknown grade (as Pete notes above) may be expected to have this piece loose under the 'orrific 'urricane force of the usual mass of oil, aka Pete's "great sodding streamers" at 8K RPM, or possibly worse -- bent up into the crank webs for a spectacular production of babbit metal fouling, crank trap filling, shavings.

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV

The piece most vulnerable is the piece dangling by the dipstick hole.

I think it is strong enough. Pete knows the metal, so he could confirm. I agree with Pete that aluminum would have to be substantially thicker.

I am guessing it is mild 12 gauge, but it could be 10 gauge. I suppose I could measure the scrap.

On the revision I may consider a better steel, but I seriously doubt it needs to be any thicker than it is.

[Paul Minnaert]

Dave,

 

At the leverl it is now, is all the oil under it? or how much goes under it?

[dlaing]

Did you draw a pattern on paper so lazy people like me could trace it onto a metal plate??????

I traced it, but if I send you a copy of the trace it will lose accuracy.

I would recommend you either dismantle the sump to get the hole spacing right, or buy a sump gasket and use it as a template for the holes.

You can use this photo

to print out and use as a ROUGH template, but keep in mind the design can certainly be improved on.

Note that photo is taken from over 6 feet away to reduce the bending effects of perspective. The first image I posted is from three feet away, so it is clearer, but more distorted.

Heavy card stock or foam board may be good for creating a template.

If you are good at that sort of thing, go for it, otherwise buy one of Pete's sheets, as it saves a lot of labor.

Pete's design still has other advantages like fewer gaps for sloshing oil to pass through, and is more solid, and it actually increases oil capacity a little and slightly lowers the sump pickup.

So, my design still needs to be tightened up, and perhaps made of high carbon steel.

Perhaps it could be broken into two pieces, one like what I designed and one to cover the front left, as Pete suggested it should have coverage there.

[dlaing]

Dave,

 

At the leverl it is now, is all the oil under it? or how much goes under it?

Good question, I have been wondering the same.

I think it may actually go over it a little.

The bottom of the sheet is between 17 and 18mm above the top of the pan gasket.

If I could find Ryland's measurements that included the pan gasket height, we could confirm.

Ryland measured with dipstick that 3.5 liters is 18.23mm below top of sump gasket.

If we know the distance between sump and pan gaskets we will know the answer. I suppose I could measure.

With dipstick resting on top of threads the high mark was still below the sheet, but I did not measure how far below.

According to this FAQ

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...amp;hl=dipstick

the oil level is half an inch above the high mark measured that way.

If that is the case, and I have no reason to doubt it, some oil will be above the sheet when filled to the recommended 3.5 liters.

I expect for the oil to burn off and find a happy level somewhere near the high mark on the dipstick.

Since the dipstick is rubbing against the sheet, I probably have a new high mark at sheet level.

I will check on that tomorrow, but reading dipsticks is not my forte...

[Guest ratchethack]

. . .reading dipsticks is not my forte...

Nor mine. But let's face it -- Wot else you ever gonna do on this here Forum?

[dlaing]

OK, so after making a near best effort measurement of the oil level it appears that after putting in 3.5 crudely measured liters of Yak fat, and idling it for about 3 minutes and then letting sit over night, putting the sidestand up on a brick so that it is nearly upright, but leaning to the right just a little, I thread the dip stick in, and find that the oil appears to be at or barely below the sheet. Residual oil on the sheet makes it tough to read accurately. So, to verify I shine a light in and can see that the top of the sheet has spot puddles of oil, indicating that the oil is at or below the sheet. I cannot see a gap between sheet and oil so I think that indicates that the oil level is right at the sheet level.

I could get my wife to hold the bike upright, but unless I fill the bike with EXACTLY 3.50 liters of oil, the measurement will not be any more meaningful.

I am satisfied with the level of the sheet, and think it is the perfect level, IMHO.

 

But like I said, this is a work in (slow) progress, and unless the gaps can be better filled, Pete's Moto Moda sheet is quite a bit better at controlling windage and it better seals the sloppage.

Ryland found that using Pete's sheet at 3.5 liters or 3.7 quarts he could get the oil pressure to drop, but not to zero, and increasing the level to 4.0 quarts, (I recall) resulted in no drop in pressure.

It could be better to run at the 4 quart oil level for other reasons like oil service intervals and oil temperature.

 

I have never had the oil light come on except for the normal ignition on, not running condition, so my bike is not the best test case for pressure drop from shlop.

But my bike does consume oil until the oil level drops to about the 2/3 full screwed in measurement, so it may be a good test case for that reason. I am hoping it will stabilize between the sheet and the high mark. Will keep you all informed months from now.

I need to go for a ride...

[raz]

I always wondered what you meant when you mentioned this "lower mount" idea earlier. Now I see your point. Not a bad idea at all, with no need for an extra gasket or higher oil level. Real world results will be interesting. I'm perfectly happy with my Roper plate and 4 liters of oil (that is standard bottle size here anyway), but I have a feeling this is not my last Spine frame.

[ALdad]

I have not installed a plate yet. With a new filter I put in 4qts. Never had a problem with light comming on. I don't do alot of hard starts because of no plate. Is this too much oil to run?