Handling issues with '04 Ballabio

[Benny]

My 2004 Ballabio has been having a few handling issues with the front end lately.

 

On long sweeping corners after you hit 120 km/h the front end doesnt feel stable. I would describe it as a "wallowing" sensation.

The handlebars are not stable and dont stay on a true line.

 

I have backed off the steering damper and also tightened it with no result. I run Metzeler Z6 tyres with 36 pounds in the front and 42 pounds in the rear. I have tried different tyre pressures as well with no change.

 

I have checked all wheel bearings and front steering head bearings and they seem ok.

 

Can anyone offer me some advice???

 

Benny

[Paul Minnaert]

check the screws from the front engine mount to the frame, when they are loose, it wil have more flex. I did loose them twice.

[Benny]

check the screws from the front engine mount to the frame, when they are loose, it wil have more flex. I did loose them twice.

Thanks paul. will do

[Guest ratchethack]

Benny, have you ever properly set up your suspension?

 

Without doing this, you have ZERO possibility of enjoying the great road manners engineered into your Ballabio (or any motorcycle).

 

Here are the sites I use and recommend. The principles are universal:

 

http://www.racetech.com/articles/SuspensionAndSprings.htm

 

http://www.strappe.com/suspension.html

 

and, for final setting up of the fork, this page:

 

http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com/oilheight.htm

 

It takes some time and effort to understand how things work, and do it properly, but I'm here to tell you that if you want to understand what your Ballabio is capable of on the road, it's well worth it. If a re-spring is required (depending on your weight and riding style -- very often), the cost in terms of expense is minimal. IMHO the bang for the buck when you get the Guzzi chassis sorted is not remotely approachable by any possible engine modification you can think of.

 

Have fun.

[docc]

Ratchet's advice is golden. , oh , yes, and also .

 

Also, beware of front tire wear. I just replaced a Pirelli Diablo Strada after about 4600 miles. I had to start turning up the steering damper as the wear got more advanced.

 

How many miles on that front tire?

[Benny]

Benny, have you ever properly set up your suspension?

 

Without doing this, you have ZERO possibility of enjoying the great road manners engineered into your Ballabio (or any motorcycle).

 

Here are the sites I use and recommend. The principles are universal:

 

http://www.racetech.com/articles/SuspensionAndSprings.htm

 

http://www.strappe.com/suspension.html

 

and, for final setting up of the fork, this page:

 

http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com/oilheight.htm

 

It takes some time and effort to understand how things work, and do it properly, but I'm here to tell you that if you want to understand what your Ballabio is capable of on the road, it's well worth it. If a re-spring is required (depending on your weight and riding style -- very often), the cost in terms of expense is minimal. IMHO the bang for the buck when you get the Guzzi chassis sorted is not remotely approachable by any possible engine modification you can think of.

 

Have fun.

Thanks very much. I have never properly set up my suspension. So will follow ur advice and let u know how I went.

I'm 82 kg (not sure what that is in pounds) and dont mind riding her as hard as my ability (and handling!!) will allow on the odd occasion.

 

Can u explain the re-spring issue?? How can I tell if that is needed??

[Benny]

Ratchet's advice is golden. , oh , yes, and also .

 

Also, beware of front tire wear. I just replaced a Pirelli Diablo Strada after about 4600 miles. I had to start turning up the steering damper as the wear got more advanced.

 

How many miles on that front tire?

Thanks. Tyre wear shouldn't be an issue. There is only 4000 km on the front tyre. It still has heaps of meat on it.

[Bbennett]

There is a very good handling bike waiting to be discovered - please invest the time to reveal it and the rewards will be large.

 

I can put my V11 front end into a corner with the confidence that it can handle more than I can...

 

Bob

[Guest ratchethack]

Can u explain the re-spring issue?? How can I tell if that is needed??

Benny, may I suggest you follow this procedure:

 

1. Read and understand the principles and terminology at the first 2 links I provided above.

 

2. Determine your starting point and your desired ending point (target). So far we have your weight (exactly my weight, to the pound, 181 lb.). That's part of wot we need to know for your starting point. The next thing we need to determine is your existing spring rates (an estimate) and your riding style (hence your target suspension firmness), which are both unknown (at least to the Forum).

 

3. For starters, by measuring the laden and unladen sags at both ends (see point #1), you can get a definitive read on the existing spring rates in your Ballabio.

 

4. Knowing as well as can be determined the kind of ride you prefer on the "soft to hard" scale, this will give you the last thing you need to know about your ending point (target).

 

For focusing in on your target objectives, a good GUIDELINE (as opposed to a RULE) for starting out that I use and have found very effective on other V11's that I've collaborated on setting up is this:

With proper rate springs suitable for MOST solo riders on the road (not necessarily track) The difference between laden and unladen sag readings (at both front and rear) should be 18 mm +/- 5 mm. If you prefer a more firm ride for aggressive riding, the difference will be lower within this range. If you prefer a softer, more compliant ride for touring, the difference will be higher within this range. If your sags fall outside this range, the spring rates are incorrect, and you may expect less desirable handling and ride characteristics than your Guzzi is capable of. To adjust your sags to fall where you want them in this range (if necessary), you will need to upgrade to different rate springs.

With this measurement at both ends "in the can", you can determine how far off (if any) your existing spring rates are from your TARGET spring rates, (the key part of your TARGET ending point) and you can decide how much of an improvement would be possible (if any) by upgrading (swapping out) springs.

 

Hope this helps, my friend. It should be enough to get you well started. Now get crackin' on #1! Any Q's, post 'em here. This Forum can help you have your suspension tuned to a point where that wallow is a distant memory, and it'll be a Brand New World of Guzzi handling.

I run Metzeler Z6 tyres with 36 pounds in the front and 42 pounds in the rear. I have tried different tyre pressures as well with no change.

FWIW, I've been running Z6's for a few years now and have raved about their virtues ad nauseum, like a mad thing. They're the best tires for my purposes that I've ever run on any moto, and I've run a pretty fair pile. I run my Z6's at 34F and 37R. At your weight, assuming you'll be setting up for solo riding and no cargo, I suspect you might achieve an immediate improvement in ride and handling by trying something closer to this.

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV

[dlaing]

I would stick with a slightly lower air pressure. I know you said you did not notice a difference, but the air pressure that you are running it at may be making it loosey goosey and less compliant with the road surface.

Even new, a poorly made tire can cause stability problems.

As others have said, getting proper springs and setting the pre-load correctly is the most important part in making a bike ride well.

Other things are important too, like making sure the bolts aren't falling out and that steering and swing arm bearings are correctly adjusted.

Many have had success removing the steering damper.

Ride height is very important.

Many have solved stability problems by lowering the front end. It is easy to do, just don't lower it so much that clearance between fender and oil cooler disappears. Lowering too much can make it handle too quickly and also you may find the sidestand scrapes too easily. But in general, it make the bike more stable. Of course it is also important to get the sag right, but start out by lowering the triple clamps down the forks. Once you do that, set the rear sag, and then come back and set the front sag, if needed.

 

Lowering the rear end helps stability too, but again, don't over do it. Setting the rear laden sag to about 35mm should put the rear end at about the right height for a stable bike (laden sag is the difference in sag of the bike lifted in the air and the bike with rider in riding position). Setting the rear laden sag is pretty easy, but having an assistant helps, and you must take into account the stiction.

Setting the rear sag to 35mm may allow the rear to bottom too easily. If that is the case you need a stiffer spring, but until you get one, you may need to increase the preload and the reduce the sag, just enough to nearly eliminate bottoming. The ideal rear sag is somewhere about 30-35mm laden, 10-15mm unladen sag, but opinions are all over the place on that...

Getting back to the front, you of course followed my advice and your front is now lowered maybe 10mm from how the bike was delivered and the rear laden sag is set to 35-30mm. Measure the front laden sag. It also should be about 30-35mm. For a more stable bike, targeting 35mm laden sag would probably be ideal. If the difference between laden sag and unladen sag is more than 20mm, you might consider a stiffer spring, and the greater the difference, the greater the necessity to change the spring.

Guzzitech sells som rising rate springs that seem to be a popular solution. But, assuming the spring is fine, but the sag is off, you will need to change the laden sag, by changing the preload. Change the preload by cutting a piece of PVC pipe to the right length. This is also a good opportunity to check the fluid level. Top off or drain off as necessary. Fork oil is supposed to be changed every 12,000 miles.

 

Which brings us to fork oil selection.

Select and oil or fluid with wide temperature stability that is the ideal viscosity. The Peter Verdone site that Ratchethack recommended gives a chart that can help you select. Note the one makers 10W is about as thick as anothers 15W. The ideal viscosity is one that allows the correct compression and rebound settings close to, but not at each setting minimum setting. Light viscosity moves better, and protects better. Remember, the fluid does not face the temperatures of an engine or transmission. If you need more damping adjust, don't simply put a thicker oil in. But also you don't want to go so thin that you lose the adjustability.

If you look at the big chart here

http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com/lowspeed.htm

something around 20 centiStrokes at 40°C might be fine, but I am just guessing based on where the Marzocchi fluid is on that chart....

I am sure somebody can recommend something that they are happy with.

But as always, your mileage may vary, and I am not an expert at this, I have mostly just read a lot of what the experts suggest. But I have been through three rear springs in search of the optimal.

You might consider HyperPro springs as they are nearly a one size fits all spring. All you have to do is install and set the sag and the damping.

Sorry about the long post. I wish there was one definitive site with perfect instructions, but I haven't found it yet, and if I made it, some will surely disagree as to its perfection, as I am sure they will disagree with this post.

[Ouiji Veck]

Wallowing in a sweeper.........I hate that.

The first time I felt it on mine was the day I found goo drippin' from

the ol' Sachs...................

[Guest ratchethack]

. . .I found goo drippin' from the ol' Sachs...................

Say Weej.

 

This could be serious. From wot I hear, in most cases, a good shot o' pennicilin would clear this up PDQ. Not that I've had the experience, y'unnerstan' -- but I'm sure it's a pretty common thing.

[Benny]

Thanks paul. will do

Paul,

Checked the front and rear engine mount bolts and they were fine. Now for the suspension set up.

Thanks mate

Ben

[Benny]

Benny, may I suggest you follow this procedure:

 

1. Read and understand the principles and terminology at the first 2 links I provided above.

 

2. Determine your starting point and your desired ending point (target). So far we have your weight (exactly my weight, to the pound, 181 lb.). That's part of wot we need to know for your starting point. The next thing we need to determine is your existing spring rates (an estimate) and your riding style (hence your target suspension firmness), which are both unknown (at least to the Forum).

 

3. For starters, by measuring the laden and unladen sags at both ends (see point #1), you can get a definitive read on the existing spring rates in your Ballabio.

 

4. Knowing as well as can be determined the kind of ride you prefer on the "soft to hard" scale, this will give you the last thing you need to know about your ending point (target).

 

For focusing in on your target objectives, a good GUIDELINE (as opposed to a RULE) for starting out that I use and have found very effective on other V11's that I've collaborated on setting up is this:

With proper rate springs suitable for MOST solo riders on the road (not necessarily track) The difference between laden and unladen sag readings (at both front and rear) should be 18 mm +/- 5 mm. If you prefer a more firm ride for aggressive riding, the difference will be lower within this range. If you prefer a softer, more compliant ride for touring, the difference will be higher within this range. If your sags fall outside this range, the spring rates are incorrect, and you may expect less desirable handling and ride characteristics than your Guzzi is capable of. To adjust your sags to fall where you want them in this range (if necessary), you will need to upgrade to different rate springs.

With this measurement at both ends "in the can", you can determine how far off (if any) your existing spring rates are from your TARGET spring rates, (the key part of your TARGET ending point) and you can decide how much of an improvement would be possible (if any) by upgrading (swapping out) springs.

 

Hope this helps, my friend. It should be enough to get you well started. Now get crackin' on #1! Any Q's, post 'em here. This Forum can help you have your suspension tuned to a point where that wallow is a distant memory, and it'll be a Brand New World of Guzzi handling.

 

FWIW, I've been running Z6's for a few years now and have raved about their virtues ad nauseum, like a mad thing. They're the best tires for my purposes that I've ever run on any moto, and I've run a pretty fair pile. I run my Z6's at 34F and 37R. I suspect you might achieve an immediate improvement in ride and handling by trying something closer to this.

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV

 

Thanks ratchet. WHen I get some days off next week I will follow ur steps given and let u know how I went.

Thanks for ur time mate

Ben