V11 Ti Ecu 04- Micha method+others

[v11cafe]

The critical difference between the forum method and the other methods, is that the forum method does not recommend adjusting the potentiometer after the 150mV is set.

 

Guzzi makes clear in workshop manuals, that zero tps is 150mv+-15mv , just considers that this is the last step if the bike doesn't idle ok.

I believe you have put it right as the first step,..and I repeat it in all "variations"...when you set zero tps to150 mv +-15mv...

you don't touch it again during next steps,... (maybe I'll try it to see what happens...although it seems a bad idea)

 

 

Right Idle throttle screw= RITS

Left Idle throttle svrew = LITS

 

The critical difference ....is that forum method suggests the idea to back off RITS , and then set tps value

using LITS with rod connected.... at idle.

 

1/...." set tps value using LITS with rod connected and RITS backed off"

an easy experiment...since your RITS is backed off and rod connected ,

connect voltometer , key on/engine off, open full the throttle grip and let it close a few times.

I saw difference in readings every time I did it, some times at the range of 10mv+-.

 

Experiment 2...connect voltmeter, disconnect rod, key on/engine off,

open full by hand right butterffly, let it close (...gently???) a few times, and check the readings.

(you check the base tps 150mv+-, since your RITS is backed off )

I saw differences not more than 2mv+-.

If this behavior applies only to my V11, then I am not right...and I have another problem.

If your V11 does the same,....connecting rod lash is the suspect.

 

2/....now about " set tps value ...... at idle."

All Guzzi manuals / technical videos etc.specify that tps values are meant, engine off-key on.

Using Guzzi proposed tps value at idle results to a lower idle than desired, since values at idle are higher than key on/engine off.

So even if you use LITS with rod connected, instead of Guzzi way , RITS with rod disconnected,

setting tps value key on/engine off is the only way to use Guzzi values (proposed for every V11 variant) as a starting point.

 

Plus from V11 owner manual....

"Starting phase

When the ignition switch is in operation, the unit feeds the fuel pump for few time and detects

the throttle angle and the temperature of the engine........."....so tps angle at idle has no meaning for the Ecu,

 

I read in an older post of Ryland that his cafe sport has a 0.484V reading at idle,

I tuned mine with 0.472V ( Guzzi value 465mv+-5, took upper limit and added 2mv, because zero angle tps was 152mv)

engine off/ key on and ended up using forum method almost at the same number 0.483V +-2mv when everything was balanced,

with an idle at 1000rpm+-50rpm.

If I increased the idle to 1150rpm, the value would have been different.

If my base tps was 159mv(within limits), again the tps idle would have been different....etc

 

So tps value at idle depends on many variables, and different readings at idle may still produce a balanced engine,

but if we want to compare numbers, there should be agreed how readings are taken.

 

"Variation 1" is nothing more than an experiment to incorporate, in forum method info from other sources,

and without any really new idea (only setting tps value with key on /engine off,as Guzzi proposes)

Therefore it is not a proven method since I am the one and only....tester......

Forum method and " variation 1", gave me almost identical results(...even in numbers),....bike OK,...still not perfect.

 

Anyway, I am more interested with "variation 2" now, that started as the ...missing lines of Guzzi Ti-kit insruction kit,

and gave me the best result so far. but I want to repeat it as many times as I can, checking that the steps lead

always to the same result...a well-balanced bike and values that remain +- within limits every time you repeat it.

 

Any comment welcome,...since everyone can see easier the mistakes of another,...than his own.

[dlaing]

Right Idle throttle screw= RITS

Left Idle throttle svrew = LITS

 

The critical difference ....is that forum method suggests the idea to back off RITS , and then set tps value

using LITS with rod connected.... at idle.

 

1/...." set tps value using LITS with rod connected and RITS backed off"

an easy experiment...since your RITS is backed off and rod connected ,

connect voltometer , key on/engine off, open full the throttle grip and let it close a few times.

I saw difference in readings every time I did it, some times at the range of 10mv+-.

 

Experiment 2...connect voltmeter, disconnect rod, key on/engine off,

open full by hand right butterffly, let it close (...gently???) a few times, and check the readings.

(you check the base tps 150mv+-, since your RITS is backed off )

I saw differences not more than 2mv+-.

If this behavior applies only to my V11, then I am not right...and I have another problem.

If your V11 does the same,....connecting rod lash is the suspect.

Interesting.

I have not tried experiment 1.

I have essentially done Experiment 2. Durring my last tune up I got between 141 and 148mV, depending on how gently I closed it. Most snap backs were about 142mV.

It surely makes sense that not using the RITS, like in experiment 1, would have more variations in the how the TPS reads at idle.

But I don't think that variation is as important as the smooth transition off of idle as you give it gas, when using the LITS.

To my mind using the RITS complicates things, but I would agree that perfectionists can get better results by both LITS and RITS. Perhaps the bike will hold the state of tune better and linkage may wear out more slowly if both screws are used???

[dlaing]

2/....now about " set tps value ...... at idle."

All Guzzi manuals / technical videos etc.specify that tps values are meant, engine off-key on.

Using Guzzi proposed tps value at idle results to a lower idle than desired, since values at idle are higher than key on/engine off.

So even if you use LITS with rod connected, instead of Guzzi way , RITS with rod disconnected,

setting tps value key on/engine off is the only way to use Guzzi values (proposed for every V11 variant) as a starting point.

I am not sure that is the only way.

Specifying a TPS reading at idle, rather than key on / engine off, may work better bike to bike.

For example some have claimed little variation whether engine is running or not, but some show a difference of 80mV.

 

Plus from V11 owner manual....

"Starting phase

When the ignition switch is in operation, the unit feeds the fuel pump for few time and detects

the throttle angle and the temperature of the engine........."....so tps angle at idle has no meaning for the Ecu,

I disagree. The owner's manual is not making much sense there, and I don't think you should draw that conclusion from such a statement.

The TPS angle at idle effects timing and fuel injector width at idle.

[v11cafe]

The TPS angle at idle effects timing and fuel injector width at idle.

Right, but not only at idle...tps angle effects timing and fuel injector width (set by trim level), at the whole range.

Tps value at idle effects to just a point on the timing map/fuel map.

WOT is another point, ....

Zero angle is taken from the ecu, when you turn the key on and you hear the fuel pump...

I was a believer in Guzzi manuals,...and now I am more skeptical and cautious about what is written,..

but some things cannot be so wrong,...Italian text and English translation are side by side in owner manual...

I read it (..not an expert, but I can manage),...and says the same thing.

 

Anyway, theory is not my strong point....

 

So how can you use tps value at idle???

I believe that if you have tuned your bike 10-20 times, and best result was always a certain tps value at idle,

then you can assume that...this is your target, and you can probably repeat it.

But,...same value is not for every V11, even if you use same method because,...

1/I have ...modified airbox, slip ons, a module, ....crossover...etc

2/I repeat for 3 times or more the cycle of balancing throttle bodies(idle balance/part throttle balance/bypasses)

3/I overheat the bike during the ....tuning

4/I was not careful setting the 0 angle tps value

5/......etc

 

That is the reason I focus more to the logic relation among steps of a method,

instead of numbers.

Only value that is 100% true for a "stock" V11, is the 150mv+- (as described in forum method)

[raz]

Zero angle is taken from the ecu, when you turn the key on and you hear the fuel pump...

I was a believer in Guzzi manuals,...and now I am more skeptical and cautious about what is written,..

but some things cannot be so wrong,...Italian text and English translation are side by side in owner manual...

I read it (..not an expert, but I can manage),...and says the same thing.

The downside of sampling idle TPS at key-on is that if you activate the fast idle before turning ignition on, mixture will be way too lean in the whole register, for that whole run. Probably to the point of running very poorly and definitely not idling. So you should be able to determine that pretty easily.

 

Keep on thinking I use to participate more in these discussions but for some reason I'm mostly lurking right now. But I do read your posts. This has been discussed to death but we always end up a tad wiser, and if nothing else we're bonding with our steam engines

[dlaing]

Zero angle is taken from the ecu, when you turn the key on and you hear the fuel pump...

I was a believer in Guzzi manuals,...and now I am more skeptical and cautious about what is written,..

but some things cannot be so wrong,...Italian text and English translation are side by side in owner manual...

I read it (..not an expert, but I can manage),...and says the same thing.

My Tuneboy does not indicate zero angle when I turn the key on. Maybe for some irrelevant fraction of a second, but it pretty quickly shows a reading of 2 or 3 degrees. Turn the engine on and for my bike is goes up a fraction of a degree to an unstable reading jumping between 3.6 and 3.8 degrees, while the voltage reading is stable at about 521mV.

[dlaing]

The downside of sampling idle TPS at key-on is that if you activate the fast idle before turning ignition on, mixture will be way too lean in the whole register, for that whole run. Probably to the point of running very poorly and definitely not idling. So you should be able to determine that pretty easily.

I don't think it samples idle, nor barometric pressure to lock in for a run.

As a test for barometric, I started at maybe a 1000 feet, rode up to 6000 feet and turned engine off, ate lunch, turned it on again and noticed no difference, rode back down to about 1000 feet, turned engine off, turned it on, and again noticed no difference.

I noticed differences at various altitudes, but I did not notice changes when turning engine off and on. Therefore I suspect the barometer actively adjusts for altitude. ( I recall someone suggested otherwise)

I would of course need O2 readings to prove it.

The same test could be done at idle...

Maybe I'll start the engine today at 25% throttle....

[raz]

I don't think it samples idle, nor barometric pressure to lock in for a run.

I'm with you, I've read a first-person story long ago about an ECU that sampled air pressure at startup. It was an ancient one, in a car. I'm pretty sure all Guzzi ECU's will actively adjust.

 

Sampling the idle is not really comparable IMO. Since it will not vary during a ride, I actually think it's pretty clever if it wasn't for the fast idle lever. But I'm pretty sure our devices doesn't sample that either.

 

Cliff's MyECU, if "unconfigured", samples idle. This is just for plug and play functionality and he recommends configuring a set value. My recent finding that idle TPS goes up several tens of mV when engine starts (on my bike, and probably due to wear) is a good reason not to use sampling.

 

Anyway, one big difference between Cliff's ECU and a Weber-Marelli one is that Cliff's MyECU does not care at all about the 150 mV. It only knows what TPS you have at idle. The WM ECU's on the other hand, really relies on the 150 mV. The 1.5M in V11 seem to also care about the idle TPS. The reason for that is unknown to me.

[dlaing]

The same test could be done at idle...

Maybe I'll start the engine today at 25% throttle....

I started today at about 30 - 40%.

It ran normally.

[v11cafe]

I started today at about 30 - 40%.

It ran normally.

Tried your idea today in two versions

Connect voltmeter , and with key on-engine off, read the tps value....then

1/ key off...opened the "choke"...,key on ...value was almost double,...started the engine....it ran normally

 

and then again key off, choke closed

2/open the throttle grip...key on...value triple than before....started the engine....it ran normally

 

So, at starting phase Ecu probably reads only zero angle(150mv+-15) , relates that to zero of fuel and timing map ,

...and when engine starts tps value at idle is translated as an advanced point on fuel and timing map,

..tps value at 2000rpm relates to a more advanced point,...and so on....

[v11cafe]

After almost 30 times I have done ( last two weeks), the tuning procedure following

forum method, Guzzi manuals, "variations", plus anything stupid that came on my head,...

I believe that problems like hiccup/baf/bzzz/bom ... for a stock V11 in good condition

with factory set trim level, occur at the low range (idle- 3000 rpm) ,

...and the reason is (...small) imbalance of throttle bodies.

If trim level is altered, and you have many aftermarket parts,... a basic tuning cannot help much,

you need more equipment than a voltmeter and a ...throttle balancer.

 

I found another good topic

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...=2410&st=15

which if I have read it earlier,...it would have saved me a lot of ....tuning experiments,

because it confirms many of my remarks.

 

Good thing ..(for me) that came out of all that trouble, is that I understood

...how every adjustment affects balance, what is the order and logic of steps,

....and what every screw does...what.

(...as raz well put it "....This has been discussed to death but we always end up a tad wiser,

and if nothing else we're bonding with our steam engines....")

 

So,...I can say that...

 

1/ There are two categories of methods, which differ in a basic idea, but ....come close to many others..

 

Use both RITS and LITS to set tps and balance cylinders initially...

In this category belong ...

Ti-kit instructions(...rod disconnected),

Jeff in Ohio method (...rod disconnected),

Ian Johnston's page where Micha's method is described (...rod connected),

"variation 2" (...rod disconnected)

etc.

 

and

Use only LITS, or RITS to set tps ...screw not used is removed,backed off ..etc

In this category belong....

Guzzi manual update 2003 (...use RITS)

Forum method (....use LITS)

"variation 1" (....use LITS)

etc.

 

2/Category methods offer better results for ....perfectionists,...and as Dlaing wrote

"To my mind using the RITS complicates things, but I would agree that perfectionists can get better results by both LITS and RITS"

On the other hand Ian Johnston says....

"If you're not concerned about small imbalances, it's quite acceptable to simply adjust the idle speed

with the left idle stop screw and not worry about throttle body balance at idle.

 

When you improve you get better results following methods of both caregories,...

so a lot depends on your...hand.

 

3/ For category methods, care should be taken that both screws touch both butterflies even with rod connected,

otherwise the method becomes category.

Open butterfly by hand, put a piece of thin paper between screw and butterfly,and check that it... bites, both sides

A tip to make it easier ....always set value using RITS key on /eng.off then balance with LITS at idle,

if you want to increase value... first RITS key on/eng off, then LITS at idle,...decreace value ....the same.

If you follow that rule, balancing with rod connected at part throttle, does not produce much difference,

so RITS and LITS stay in touch with butterflies.

 

 

4/All methods and manuals accept 0 angle tps value is 150mv+-15mv(...closer you are the better),

everything disconnected

 

5/Ti-Ecu doesn't need some special method...to work,...just a good "standard" tuning.

465mv+- 5mv that Guzzi suggests as "start" tps is a litlle on the low side,...got best results

close to 500mv+- 10mv key on engine off..and tps idle 515mv +-10mv...(at least for my V11).

 

 

6/Balancing throttle bodies needs a lot of back checking,...repetition, especially for a beginner like me.

Many times I checked the bike starting from the begining,...say after one hour,

from last perfect ....balance and I found that it ....was not so perfect.

 

7/Variation of tps between key on/ engine off, and idle tps shoud be within +20mv or less, (usually 10mv)

otherwise something ...goes wrong.I cannot prove it, but I always found mistakes that I have done,

when the difference between value key on/eng.off and value at idle was bigger.

 

8/It's a bad idea to move the potentiometer outside the 150mv+- 15mv limit, as forum method and ...others say..

unless you want to see what happens,...like I did.Idle goes up or down if you are +- 15mv, more than that +- mv,...

the Ecu get...wrong info from tps sensor,...and you can imagine how the bike runs.

Heard that some pro-tuners play with 0 angle tps, , because when they create a custom fuel map(richer),

with a power comm. or similar module, they want timing to be more advanced , so setting a higher zero angle... say 220mv,

matches new fuel map with existing timing map.

Since voltmeter and throttle balancer are my only ... weapons testing such a theory...is beyond me.

 

 

9/bypasses cannot raise idle more than 150rpm, if you keep max 1 turn-out limit.

So target is a 900-1000rpm idle, just before you are ready to open them.

 

 

10/All components of bike should be in good working order, otherwise you waste your time.

(..check condition of battery).

 

11/Don't overheat the bike, and continue balancing etc,

You will end up with a bike that runs good, only when it is....... overheated

 

12/Basic tuning of a V11 has the aim to make it run like it was supossed to run, when Luigi finished with it...

not to make it run like ....a VFR Honda...so no miracles

[Dimitris]

εξαιρετικός!!

[gstallons]

εξαιρετικός!!

 

That's greek to me ?

[Dimitris]

That's greek to me ?

yeap! like saying "he did a great job".

[gstallons]

If you speak three languages you are multilingual, if you speak two languages you are bilingual, if you speak one language you are American