Advice from my Mechanic

[Guest captain nemo]

Howdy Bros!

 

I live in Seattle and our Guzzi dealer is #1 in the USA. It is a great shop with very friendly bros who are busy wrenching all day. I had my V11 in today for oils replacement. My mechanic, Jason, races his Aprilia Falco; the sales guy ownes a Mille factory, and Jason's girlfriend ownes one of the only 250 two-stroke Aprilias in the country which has been licensed for the street. None of that matters to my comment, but I just wanted to make the point that these guys know what they are talking about.

 

Jason took my V11 for a spin and recommended the following: He said the front fork is too soft and the White Power rear is too stiff. He wants to change out my front fork springs to .95 kg Yamaha KS1 springs with a heavier oil. At the same time he will losen up the rear a notch, putting more weight on the rear end.

 

He also wants me to try an air filter experiment. Normally we see K&Ns attached to the injection body, but he thinks I should keep the velocity tubes on and find a K&N that will fit onto the ends of them instead of taking them off. I have a Power Commander, so it shouldn't be too difficult to get everything dialed back in again. Has anyone tried this?

 

~Cap'n

[al_roethlisberger]

Hi Capt

 

Yep, am very familiar with the folks up your way at Moto International(USA TLM affiliate - our Forum sponsor ).... I assume that's who you are referring to. I've talked to them on the phone many times, and order all my MG parts from them now

 

Couple of comments on both of your topics, intake and suspension:

 

1) First, I am sure that Jason is very knowledgeable, but I've never seen a V11 Sport with the WP suspension. We've actually had this discussion on here somewhere, but I can't find the thread. But the consensus was reached that yes, WP bits were on the Sport1100 series, and although all the press material for the V11 bikes at least up to 2002 said "either Sachs-Boge or WP suspension" ... in reality, no V11 Sport/LeMans models anyone has seen have indeed had any WP components, front or rear, delivered from the factory.

 

Now that's not to say that your mechanic's advice is spot-on, or that someone may have installed a WP unit aftermarket.... or maybe you are the one fella we've seen in the world with a WP shock from the factory But just a comment.

 

I'm sure his advice is fine though, regardless of the manufacturer of the componentry

 

 

2) Regarding the K&N pods question, we have a lengthy thread on the subject here:

 

Intake Mod Thread

 

It's actually the "norm" and recommended practice to always put the pods on the intake runner "extensions" as opposed to directly on the TBs. So your mechanic's recommendation is fairly common and works fine. That being said, I have noticed that never-the-less, especially in Europe, attaching the smaller cone-shaped filters to the TBs directly seems to be more common, and I have not heard of any ill effects. So perhaps there is some degree of "urban legendry" to the recommendation of using the extensions? I don't know, but then again, the K&N filters I used have the extension already built-in

 

Hope that helps!

 

al

[Guest captain nemo]

Al,

 

Great post and I guess I should introduce myself in the appropriate area tonight and send a link to my guzzi picture. I may indeed be mistaken about my rear shock. I guess I assumed it is a WP item because I saw it listed in V11 specs and because it is in fact all white. Is everybody's rear shock white?

 

Anyway, I know you have a thread on the air filters, but just to save me some time.....what exact K&N are you running? You have it attached to the 'runners?' Did you notice an increase in torque or low end power?

 

I love the way my Guzzi runs; I do have Mistrals installed, but Jason said opening up the air would give me more power - AND - get this.... they say that because it rains here in Seattle a lot, that the K&Ns would admit some water WHICH WOULD BE VERY GOOD AND WOULD CLEAN MY PISTONS!

 

I have a Power Commander so I'm ready to experiment.

 

~Cap'n

 

(best collection of emoticons I've seen)

[dlaing]

If your bike is anything like mine, the suspension mods that he suggested would ruin the handling.

The heavier fork springs is probably an excellent idea.

The heavier fork oil is probably a bad idea, if anything thinner oil might be the way to go. Atleast from what I have heard....

My rear shock has WAY too light of a spring, so I would go with heavier spring, not lighter.

I am over 200 lbs so that does play into consideration.

Stiffening up the front and softening the rear too much, will cause your front wheel to push out in turns giving a very insecure feel.

A common misconception from taking a stock V11 for a spin is that the rear suspension is too firm. The misconception arrives from the fact that the suspension is bottoming out because the spring is toooooo soft.

Please have Moto International do sag readings of you on the bike, and verify that the harshness on the rear is not bottoming related.

They may change their mind about softening the rear, although they may mean softening it by firming it up enough so that it does not bottom out..

http://www.guzzitech.com has two excellent articles on setting up suspension that are worth a read.

[al_roethlisberger]

....yep, my Sachs-Boge is white

 

As far as the filter, the part # is: RU 1780

 

The intake runner "option" isn't an issue with these filters, as the filter has an extension built into the filter(which is cylindrical, not conical like some of the other models) such that they more-or-less have the runner built in to the filter. Although the filter in this case does bolt on to the TB directly, there is a good 3 inches of tube integrated into the filter to smooth the airflow.

 

Check out the photos in the thread referenced above

 

al

[Guest John T]

What year sport are we talking about?

 

From my finely tuned "ass" tool, (my butt) the '00 and '01 sports had very firm rear shocks.

They would shoot my fat ass off the seat when hitting sharp bumps. They seemed to have softened the rear shocks on the newer bikes, but I have no hard facts.

 

As was mentioned, the first and second year sports reacted well to raising the forks in the triple trees and raising the rear to get more weight on the front. This made the bikes more stable and less "tank slapper" happy.

 

Tidbit from Guzziology. The first sports 2000's had a radical (for Guzzi) steering head angle. After some reports of tank slappers at high speeds (my '00 sport) the Rosso Mandello had the steering relaxed by a half a degree. This kept the sharp handling but made the bike stable in sweepers.

Then the Lemans series and all sports had the frame lengthened to put this bike more in the sport touring mode. They may have relaxed the head angle again, not sure. The result is much stability but slightly slower handling, more like the old sports "on rails" handling.

[Guest captain nemo]

I just read the thread on airbox mods and am now more confused. Sounds like nothing has been decided. I sure like the looks of pods though.

 

However, it would seem to me that the problem with pods are that your air turbulence would constantly vary according to your cruising speed. With an air box you have more of a chance to 'still' the air and create a more consistent environment. Too bad it makes the bike look heavy.

 

~Cap'n

[RichMaund]

I have my 2000 V11S set up with a set of alloy Mistral cans, stock cross over, K&N filter with no airbox lid and a PCIII from Todd Egan running the map for the "mistral cans and stock intake and cross over" map. Dyno'd at 83 rwhp and 65 ft.lbs torque locally at the Triumph Dealer.

It idles flawlessly at 1000 rpm. Drivability is excellent. Mid range is fat and linear and it still has a nice top end punch. 41mpg hiway and 33 city. You can cruise it at 3000 rpm, 4k or 5k. It's smooth all over the place!

It runs so well now that I am almost afraid to mess with it anymore.

[dlaing]

They would shoot my fat ass off the seat when hitting sharp bumps.

John,

So, can we take it that you are much more satisfied with the Ohlins?

[Guest captain nemo]

Rich,

 

Are you using the short cone-type K&N? I also have Mistrals and stock everything else. What map it is running is unknown as it was just figured by trial and error. I can say that it runs very strong everywhere which is why I don't see how it could be impoved much. Still, I like the looks of those K&Ns. If you can remember which filter you have maybe I'll try it.

[al_roethlisberger]

Rich is not using pods, just a flat K&N OEM replacement filter, that drops right into the airbox.

 

He employed an airbox lid eliminator "ring" like the one Fast by Ferracchi sells, but he made it himself out of diamond-plate aluminum. This exposes the whole OEM flat filter to open air under the tank, and let's one "eliminate" the airbox lid and associated snorkels. If I hadn't relocated my fuel-pump under the tank after tossing the airbox, this would have been a good solution I would have considered as well. A lot of folks do this as it is simple, and seems to have measureable results.

 

The variou filter numbers are in the FAQ section:

 

Forum intake and air-filter FAQ

 

He's got a photo of his home-made ring floating around somewhere although I coudn't find it. But you can get your own kit, including filter, from FBF as well.

 

al

[RichMaund]

Al's right on my set up. Riding to school today just keeps convincing me of how well it works. I like the side panels and didn't want to eliminate them with the airbox. (It'd be alot of fussy work to build my own frame to keep the side panels and use the individual K&N's!)

Perhaps this winter I'll start a custom sheet steel gas tank for the bike to make better use of some of the open space where the lid used to be! I figure leaving 1.5" above it free will be cool for intake flow. May get an honest 6 gallon tank when I'm done!

 

Anyone have drawings to construct an English Wheel?

 

I can do the machining and welding, but it's always good to have a good print to work from!

[Guest John T]

"John,

So, can we take it that you are much more satisfied with the Ohlins?"

 

The biggest improvement was the better compliance in the rear. When I sit on the bike and jump up and down the bike actually moves now!

 

One part of my usual ride in the Bear Mountain state park in N.Y, has a series of sharp expansion joints in the pavement. I almost had to stand the bike up straight to take them, now I just ride over them on the lean.

The front end just feels better all around. Much more beefy aned solid feeling. (43mm vs 40mm stock)

 

No regrets!

[Lex]

Cap,

 

I would highly recommend stiffer fork springs. I'm willing to bet that most of the members of this list are tired of hearing me say the same thing but I'm going to say it again. Getting the spring rate right is the first priority, once the springs are right you can look into damping. The springs MG put in our forks seems to be for a very light (lets say 125 to 140 pound) rider. I have been told they are 0.6 kg/ cm, very soft. As far as the oil (thicker or thinner) I'll accept what others have said, look into thinner oil. I had my suspension re-valved, the stock setting are so far off I couldn't see any point in working with the stock set-up. In other words, I'd put good springs in and go from there. Just keep in mind that there is more to testing than oil weight, play with the amount (level) of the oil as well. More oil gives you a stiffer "air spring" near full compression, less oil will have the opposite effect. Also, your forks have compression and rebound damping in separate legs, you can, for example, stiffen compression but not rebound by using thicker oil on the left leg. Finally, keep in mind that the adjusters on your forks (and shock) only adjust the damping up to a point, as the force trying to move the fork increases the damping holes controlled by the adjusters are overwhelmed and the "washer stack" controls damping. At this point you have to change the oil or the "stack" to make changes.

 

For average sized people the most common spring seems to be 0.9 kg/ cm springs, the 0.95 spring your mechanic recommends is pretty close. However, I would question using OEM Yamaha springs. In general stock springs (unless the bike is equipped with very high-end suspension like WP or Ohlins) are, to be blunt, crap. They are made of poor quality metal and sack (permanently compress) relatively quickly. I think you would be much happier with aftermarket springs, e.g. Eibach. As a rule of thumb, if you need more than ~20 mm (3/4") of pre-load in your forks to get the ride height set the spring is too soft.

 

As to the rear, I would be a bit worried about an "expert" who gave you the softer shock spring advice. I'd very strongly agree with the people saying this is the wrong way to go. The rear end feels stiff because the soft springs compress and you only have a short amount of travel before you get to the bump stops. If you make any changes to the rear I'd strongly suggest stiffer, not softer. As a basic rule of thumb, if you need more than about 10 mm (~3/8") of pre-load to get the correct ride high your spring is too soft. I have a much stiffer than stock rear spring, my bike rides very well in tour mode and keeps the rear tire on the ground and working during aggressive riding in the bumpy stuff.

 

If you want to do suspension work I'd suggest finding a local shop that the racers in your area use. Moto International is a good shop but the advice (at least the suspension advice, I don't know about the air cleaners) you have been given is pretty questionable. If you can't find a good local shop try Race Tech or LE. Just be sure they understand how you use the bike and don't over estimate your riding skill/ style, a race track set-up will be crap on the street.

 

I had LE re-spring and valve my bike and am very happy with the results. Other have suggested Guzzi Tech for more info, I'd specifically suggest Ed Milich's article from 9.04.01. FWIW, others have felt the need to go to go very high end, i.e. Ohlins, on their V11s. I am very happy with my modified forks and shock. I may look at a better rear shock one day but I can't see enough improvement potential in my forks to think about that but, as they say, YMMV.

 

Cheers,

 

Lex

[Guest captain nemo]

UPDATE

 

You guys are great. Here is what I have learned myself: I am 165 lbs. - the guy testing my bike was at least 200. So, I simply did a couple small adjustments and tried them out. Perfect! First, I simply subtracted two or three clicks of compression on the front forks and kept the rebound where it was. This dropped the front end down and put weight onto the front tire. Not only could I now 'dive' or bounce the forks for the first time, but this improved bump feel and comfort. Also, I feel more stability and control as the bike leans now slightly toward the front.

 

Then I did the same for the back. I subtracted compression and left rebound the same. Again, a pleasant feel - more comfort and more 'attachment' to the street. I feel lower and meaner on the road. It is a very 'guzzied' feeling that matches the guzziness of the engine. I don't know what I did, but it feels right to me. I have taken a few sweepers and I feel actually more secure and solid. I also widened the clip-ons a hair and I feel very aggressive now. It is a great feeling.

 

I think because I am fairly light that there will be no further need to change anything. I am still wondering what rear shock I have. I can tell you that the outboard hydraulic unit to adjust compression has a blue knob with no numbers on it. Which one is this?

 

~nemo