Oil Light On, Low Idle, Bike Very Hot:

[tmcafe]

The other day I noticed the idle seemed lower than usual. While it had always a bit low--just under 1000 on the tach with engine warm, this time it kept low even after a few miles, to the point that at least once at a stoplight it felt like the engine was about to stall. I kept on riding and played with higher revs (no more than 6.5k) in several gears. The bike seemed to work okay, but the idle kept hovering around 500. After about 40 miles as I was riding back into town, the dreaded red light came on as I was about to take off at a traffic light. It was a matter of couple seconds before I turned the engine off and pushed the bike on the sidewalk and into a parking lot. Worse, the temp dipstick showed 120˚C (that's almost 250˚ F). Crap! Another loose filter case? Low idle caused low oil pressure? And why the overheating? Anyway, I took Micha's advice, who said he wouldn't try to start it again, and that I should drop the sump and check to see if there was a problem. Later got the bike towed compliments of Moto Guzzi, and the next morning I dropped the sump. Oil clean of any bits, filter very tight just as I had installed it, nothing in the mesh screen (I replaced the oil anyway). Micha said that I could start the bike, and that it may be a bad pressure sensor. Well, no red light this time, but I fiddled with the "choke" and didn't let the idle drop under an indicated 1100 or so.

 

I'm still wondering about a few things.

 

1. What caused the idle to drop (I thought maybe I accidentally messed it up while I was trying to mount the new shock I got back recently)?

 

2. What caused the overheating? (maybe some relatively high revs at lower speeds? ; outside temp lower 90s I guess ?)

 

3. What's the max oil level without changing the filter? (I put in 3 quarts, 4 qts when I installed the filter; confusing dipstick reads "full", but I hate that capilary run up the stem; still haven't marked the thermo dipstick ). 3 qt seems less than what I'd expect, even without replacing filter. Anybody has figured how much oil is needed when filter is kept in?

 

Suggestions welcome. Muchas gracias!

 

PS Beloved bike has been getting spoiled: I took the advice of forum members and took apart rear wheel and bevel box, greased front zirk, checked all other critical points for grease, done the "Swiss cheese" cush drive job, cleaned rear caliper, greased clutch and brake pedal axles, plus other points Luigi didn't bother with... Checked for "endangered" electrical cables. And installed the 3 "Edge" guards.

[raz]

Just a couple of thoughts, to bump your thread up if nothing else. Your bike is lucky to have an owner that doesn't consider the oil light an "oil level heads up" but a "pressure already too low, serious, fatal, warning" like it should be. There's too many "I just tried to ride home after the oil light went on" stories here and they always end in disaster.

 

120˚C is very hot but as far as I know it's not quite over the edge. I think even dyno oil will survive that temperature. Maybe it is just a bad pressure sensor. I'm not sure what failure mode is common, always lit or never lit?

[tmcafe]

Just a couple of thoughts, to bump your thread up if nothing else. Your bike is lucky to have an owner that doesn't consider the oil light an "oil level heads up" but a "pressure already too low, serious, fatal, warning" like it should be. There's too many "I just tried to ride home after the oil light went on" stories here and they always end in disaster.

 

120˚C is very hot but as far as I know it's not quite over the edge. I think even dyno oil will survive that temperature. Maybe it is just a bad pressure sensor. I'm not sure what failure mode is common, always lit or never lit?

Thanks for your comments raz. The most competent members here have said it enough that the red light on is often too little too late, and stopping the engine before anything else isn't just optional. The bad sensor was suspected first, but it's likely not the case, as the light goes off as soon as I start the engine. However, the engine is still getting too hot in my opinion. Even after a mellow ride with revs kept around 3k, the temp is about 100˚C (212˚F). It's summer, but not that hot. Also the idle is still low (when starting the bike, the "choke" pushed to max will barely keep the revs around 1000. I can try to adjust the idle to 1100 on the bike's tach at least (TPS included). Something else I can think of is that the bike may be running too lean, hence the overheating. Can't tell why, since otherwise the bike has been running smooth since I got it from MI. More suggestions would help.

[Cliff]

The idle should be 1100-1200. You're not doing the engine any favours by being lower.

 

While moving at 70kmh or more, I would expect the oil temp to sit around 40C more than ambient.

When in slow traffic or at lights, you'll be surprised how quickly the temperature will rise. 3 red traffic lights in quick succession will get you near 100C.

[tmcafe]

The idle should be 1100-1200. You're not doing the engine any favours by being lower.

 

While moving at 70kmh or more, I would expect the oil temp to sit around 40C more than ambient.

When in slow traffic or at lights, you'll be surprised how quickly the temperature will rise. 3 red traffic lights in quick succession will get you near 100C.

Thanks Cliff. I know low idle means low oil pressure, so I've been keeping the revs to at least 1k since. Still surprised about the temp. I don't get to sit long at traffic lights in this small town, and 120˚C is still too much.

 

Edit: FWIW, I remember that riding at highway speeds in low temps (around/below freezing) would get the engine fairly consistent to about 80˚ C (around 175˚ F), but I don't know how that rates.

[Garsdad]

No temp gauge on mine, but I can tell you that if I sit at a long red light in the summer, it will ping pulling away. A short ride at 30-40mph and it seems to "cool down" and after a short stop it will not ping.

 

When it was really hot (mid-90's) and my fuel was low, it would stumble a bit and the idle would fall, almost to the point of stalling. I twisted the grip just far enough to maintain my 1100 rpms on the tach.

 

Don't know what caused it, and I didn't suffer any oil light episodes, but everything else seems to match your problem exactly. I did adjust my valves, and re-set my TPS, but have not had a chance to ride in temps that high since to see if the issue repeats.

 

It may just be the nature of the beast...

[tmcafe]

No temp gauge on mine, but I can tell you that if I sit at a long red light in the summer, it will ping pulling away. A short ride at 30-40mph and it seems to "cool down" and after a short stop it will not ping.

 

When it was really hot (mid-90's) and my fuel was low, it would stumble a bit and the idle would fall, almost to the point of stalling. I twisted the grip just far enough to maintain my 1100 rpms on the tach.

 

Don't know what caused it, and I didn't suffer any oil light episodes, but everything else seems to match your problem exactly. I did adjust my valves, and re-set my TPS, but have not had a chance to ride in temps that high since to see if the issue repeats.

 

It may just be the nature of the beast...

Thanks Garsdad. Good to know it's not just my bike. In the meantime I've found some posts dealing with the effect of heat on the engine. Here's a very useful one: Summer Oil Temps

[dabore84]

My v11 2003 with cat also has low idle speed. About 800-900 rpm. At the workshop they tried to TPS the bike, but the bike just stalls at what would be the normal values for other v11's. Have a topic about the whole story from ok to bad

 

When they did the TPS, the bike was revved all the time for about half an hour en reading from the ECU engine temp, it was about 110˚C.

So I think that for my bike with cat, the low idle seems to be normal. And the temperatures too. Have you checked the oil itself (mybe bad oil, I've full synthetic 15w60), airfilter(just in case) and sparkplugs(can tell you about the lean\rich condition plug colors, thanks to Ratchet ).

 

The engine itself is bulletproof. The problems are often the things around it, as I lately noticed.

Good Luck!

[tmcafe]

My v11 2003 with cat also has low idle speed. About 800-900 rpm. At the workshop they tried to TPS the bike, but the bike just stalls at what would be the normal values for other v11's. Have a topic about the whole story from ok to bad

 

When they did the TPS, the bike was revved all the time for about half an hour en reading from the ECU engine temp, it was about 110˚C.

So I think that for my bike with cat, the low idle seems to be normal. And the temperatures too. Have you checked the oil itself (mybe bad oil, I've full synthetic 15w60), airfilter(just in case) and sparkplugs(can tell you about the lean\rich condition plug colors, thanks to Ratchet ).

 

The engine itself is bulletproof. The problems are often the things around it, as I lately noticed.

Good Luck!

Thanks dabore. Don't know about cat bikes, US ones came without. Also even the sticker on the swingarm says 1100. Again, if I keep the fast idle lever partly on, just enough to rev around 1100, all is well. Your previous post adds to my reluctance to mess with the TPS, because otherwise the bike runs fine. Plugs were correctly gapped and cleaned, but I could take a look again. Oil dumped was motorcycle Valvo 10W-40 (dino). Replaced it with 20W-50, same brand. (planning not to go under 50 from now on). OEM filter should be okay too.

[Greg Field]

TM:

 

I have instrumentation on my V11 to monitor all this stuff. Use synth oil. Real synth oil. I saw 130 C-plus temps for many hours this past weekend, and you live in hotter territory than I do. At the minimum, use Motorex 5100 semi-synth. Oil is CHEAP compared to parts and labor. Really cheap.

 

Also, monitor your steering damper. Mine shit the bed this weekend. I have always had the feeling of somewhat heavy steering and felt like the front tire was low on pressure. It was the Ohlins damper. It isn't leaking, just really high in resistance. I felt the same one day on the bike you got. Monitor this.

[tmcafe]

TM:

 

I have instrumentation on my V11 to monitor all this stuff. Use synth oil. Real synth oil. I saw 130 C-plus temps for many hours this past weekend, and you live in hotter territory than I do. At the minimum, use Motorex 5100 semi-synth. Oil is CHEAP compared to parts and labor. Really cheap.

 

Also, monitor your steering damper. Mine shit the bed this weekend. I have always had the feeling of somewhat heavy steering and felt like the front tire was low on pressure. It was the Ohlins damper. It isn't leaking, just really high in resistance. I felt the same one day on the bike you got. Monitor this.

Thanks Greg! This is good to know. Makes my 120 C look almost normal. (late at night when it's cool it goes only to about 80-85 C). I put in dino because the engine's still breaking in; I remember many say go synthetic only after at least 10k miles. If that's not an issue, I'll go synthetic right away (I've got plenty, including a case of Elf 10W-50 SG PAO synth--hope that works). You're right that best oil is cheaper than all the other options.

 

I remember vaguely feeling the steering being heavier. Is it because the gas expansion due to heat? Does oil increase in volume with heat (though it's not compressible)? How many clicks from closed do you usually have on your s/d?

[Tom M]

Again, if I keep the fast idle lever partly on, just enough to rev around 1100, all is well.

 

If I were you I'd just stick an allen key in the throttle stop on the left side TB and turn it in to get the idle up to an acceptable level.

[tmcafe]

If I were you I'd just stick an allen key in the throttle stop on the left side TB and turn it in to get the idle up to an acceptable level.

Like most, I too like simple solutions. Since the fast idle lever seems to (at start, barely) do the job, I was thinking about pretty much the same thing. But won't that mess with the TPS setting?

[Tom M]

Like most, I too like simple solutions. Since the fast idle lever seems to (at start, barely) do the job, I was thinking about pretty much the same thing. But won't that mess with the TPS setting?

 

Nope. The only way to change the TPS setting is to loosen the screws and move it. From what I've read here the ECU map is based on the TPS being set at 150mV with the throttle plate completely closed. Once that is set moving your idle stop won't change it.

 

Another way to increase idle speed is to open the air bleed screws in the throttle bodies, but if the bike is running well except for the low idle I'd just turn the left side idle stop screw in a bit. If you don't like it turn it back out the same amount. I'm no expert though, so if some else doesn't agree I hope they speak up.

[raz]

if the bike is running well except for the low idle I'd just turn the left side idle stop screw in a bit. If you don't like it turn it back out the same amount. I'm no expert though, so if some else doesn't agree I hope they speak up.

I agree. If raising idle using LH screw fixes your problems, then that is the right thing to do, regardless what mV the TPS ends up as at idle. And if it doesn't, just screw it back.