Ignition tunning

[nuevototem]

Hi to all,

 

I have a MG V11sport 2003.

 

Just changed the x-over for a stucchi and IXIL exhaust (they are very open).

 

I do the service myself for years now and this time I see the sparks this way:

 

LEFT:

 

 

RIGHT:

 

 

The performance of the bike feels much better with the change especially in the mid range.

 

So my question is:

 

1) What do you think of the colors of the sparks?

2) Can I damage the engine?

3) How can I change the ignition without a power commander with the stock ECU?

4) Do I have to change the air filter?

4) Any other suggestion?

 

Best regards to all,

[gstallons]

You will HAVE to purchase a PowerCommander and get it "mapped" for your mods. These bikes come from the factory "out of adjustment", being calibrated (my personal opinon) for the climate and altitude for Italy. This will be the best modification you can do!

BTW, what did the spark plugs look like before the modification?

[nuevototem]

Hi to all,

 

Barcelona Moto Guzzi have an AXONE and told me to change the CO from 2.5 to 0.5. Anyone knows something about this?

 

Gstallons,

 

BTW, what did the spark plugs look like before the modification?

The “white” spark was not so “white”.

 

Best reagards to all

[Guest ratchethack]

Hi Nuevototem

 

I did just about exactly the same mod on my '00 Sport 5 years ago (or thereabouts).

 

Wot gstallons said WRT installing a Power Commander III. Not mandatory, but for all practical purposes, it's pretty close IMHO, especially considering the mods you've just done.

 

1) What do you think of the colors of the sparks?

 

Please forgive, but I find the photo's particularly "challenging" from an analysis perspective. There just isn't enough light on them to get a decent read. Regardless of this challenge, it's impossible to get an accurate read on plugs after having done the exhaust modification you've done anyway, unless you start with fresh plugs at the time of the mods. Unless I miss my guess (and this is largely a guess) just from the amount of darkness on the photo's, it appears that you've got considerable soot buildup on the plugs, but this would likely be from running them with the stock system for quite awhile before you did the exhaust mods??

 

Here's a link to a good NGK color analysis chart, circa 1977. Don't be dismayed by the date. Keep in mind that for the most part, the technology of the V11 motor is from a couple o' decades prior to 1977, so the chart ain't by any means outdated for our purposes.

 

http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Plugs/Spark_Plugs_catalog.html

 

2) Can I damage the engine?

 

Yes. I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case with your mods (likely not by my experience), but the danger, if any, would be from running too lean as a direct result of your exhaust changes. Running leaner than before can be expected 100% of the time as a direct result of opening up the relatively restrictive stock exhaust system.

 

3) How can I change the ignition without a power commander with the stock ECU?

 

Too many ways to list, though IMHO none are as easy, nor as practical for the average rider -- JUST MY OPINION.

 

4) Do I have to change the air filter?

 

No.

 

4) (Part II) Any other suggestion?

 

Get your Power Commander III from your best source (not necessarily the cheapest, if price is ALL you're looking for, and how're you gonna do better than NOW with the U$D in the tank?) -- IMHO this would be a very poor place for most people to go cheap and try to save a few measly drachmas. For convenience and access to World Class knowledge, suggestions, service, support, and likely the world's most extensive library of "pre-built" PC III maps (gratis, for the asking!) for V11's (and all FI Guzzi's), your source is Todd Eagan at GuzziTech. http://www.guzzitech.com/PCIII.html

 

Hope this helps.

[dlaing]

LEFT:

 

 

RIGHT:

 

 

 

 

So my question is:

 

1) What do you think of the colors of the sparks?

2) Can I damage the engine?

3) How can I change the ignition without a power commander with the stock ECU?

4) Do I have to change the air filter?

4) Any other suggestion?

 

Best regards to all,

I'd start by replacing the plugs and balancing the throttle bodies.

If that is not good enough, look at valve and tps settings.

 

You may change the ignition without a power commander, with the stock ECU, using either Tuneboy or Direct Link.

Tuneboy has the advantage of PCIII map importing.

Directlink appears to be better in other ways, and less expensive last I compared.

People say Axone can change the ignition, but I have not seen the documentation for that and it is expensive.

Techlusion can modify the fueling in a very simple way and like the PCIII it can't modify the ignition timing.

FIM Ultimap can modify the fueling, but I am not sure about the ignition.

[luhbo]

Those sparkplugs are looking as if the engine runs rich enough. I wouldn't buy a Power Commander either. I know nobody here in Germany who uses this PC, nevertheless nearly all of those guys have open exhausts, rubber nozzles removed and cut open airboxes and well running V11 engines. This PC is a very typical US thingie.

 

Hubert

[Guest frankdugo]

Those sparkplugs are looking as if the engine runs rich enough. I wouldn't buy a Power Commander either. I know nobody here in Germany who uses this PC, nevertheless nearly all of those guys have open exhausts, rubber nozzles removed and cut open airboxes and well running V11 engines. This PC is a very typical US thingie.

 

Hubert

ditto

[fotoguzzi]

Before you get into the power comander etc, I would set the TPS values and sync throttle bodies.. it may be all you need.. at least to get clean balanced ignition.

heres a link to the procedure, its not very hard to do.

 

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12204

 

http://www.guzzitech.com/TPS-SetBal-JMickowski.html

[Dan M]

1) What do you think of the colors of the sparks?

2) Can I damage the engine?

3) How can I change the ignition without a power commander with the stock ECU?

4) Do I have to change the air filter?

4) Any other suggestion?

 

1) They look quite rich. These bikes tend to be rich at idle. Did you let it idle for awhile before pulling those plugs? Was it warmed up? Running a hot engine at steady speed (3000 - 4000 RPM) for a mile or more then pulling the plugs without letting it idle for any length of time is the best way to get a color read. Poor contact at the temp sensor will also cause rich running at all rpms. Seems to be a common problem.

2) I don't think you will damage anything.

3) Your problem is fuel, not ignition.

4) If the air filter is extremely dirty it will also cause richness. If it is clean it is not your problem.

4) Opening the exhaust as you did will cause it to run more lean not rich. Look elsewhere.

[Guest ratchethack]

Looks like this bears repeating.

 

Nuevototem hasn't indicated one way or the other that he's installed new plugs since the new exhaust system. By the looks of the plugs from the photos posted, it would appear not, but of course, this can't be assumed -- but again, these are fairly poor photos that can't be very accurately read, in any event!

 

AGAIN: IF old plugs are wot we're looking at, any attempt to read them now with any degree of accuracy is absolutely futile -- regardless of photo quality!

 

A heavy carbon build-up on the plugs (as would appear likely, just by the darkness of the poor quality photos) established by many miles of running previous to the exhaust changes, would not be expected to immediately, (nor entirely) burn off with a relatively low number of miles after suddenly running leaner as a result of the new exhaust system. In this circumstance, we simply don't have enough critical info about wot we're lookin' at to make any significant conclusions wotsoever.

 

The correct way to read plugs here is to first install NEW PLUGS to obivate the left-over "plug evidence" of the "old" A/F on the plugs that was established when the old exhaust system was in place. Then conduct a "plug chop", per the age-old practice of properly jetting carbed bikes. Put several thousand miles at least on fresh plugs. Run the bike up to normal operating temp and normal operating RPMs, then as quickly as practically possible, "chop" the throttle and kill the motor ASAP before having the plugs out for a read. Wot you're after in this case is as "untainted" a read as possible from normal operating conditions. Many (myself included) do this at roadside for the most accurate read, carrying a second set of plugs for re-installation on the spot. When jetting carbs, one conducts plug chops at various conditions of throttle and load for a more "granular" read of the plugs, whereby re-jetting &/or raising or lowering the taper needle, cut the slide, etc. is performed, as indicated.

 

Of course, this behavior will no doubt be considered anal-retentive folly by many, who have never done it and/or never heard of it, and/or would never bother, regardless of the value it provides. But if you don't do this (or something close to it), it's simply a fact that the read you're after at the plugs will be masked to some degree by changes to the read by low-throttle, low-RPM running, and the longer this continues before shut-down, the more the masking effect will show up on the plugs, confusing a correct read.

 

Have fun.

[Dan M]

Looks like this bears repeating.

 

Nuevototem hasn't indicated one way or the other that he's installed new plugs since the new exhaust system. By the looks of the plugs from the photos posted, it would appear not, but of course, this can't be assumed -- but again, these are fairly poor photos that can't be very accurately read, in any event!

 

AGAIN: IF old plugs are wot we're looking at, any attempt to read them now with any degree of accuracy is absolutely futile -- regardless of photo quality!

 

A heavy carbon build-up on the plugs (as would appear likely, just by the darkness of the poor quality photos) established by many miles of running previous to the exhaust changes, would not be expected to immediately, (nor entirely) burn off with a relatively low number of miles after suddenly running leaner as a result of the new exhaust system. In this circumstance, we simply don't have enough critical info about wot we're lookin' at to make any significant conclusions wotsoever.

 

The correct way to read plugs here is to first install NEW PLUGS to obivate the left-over "plug evidence" of the "old" A/F on the plugs that was established when the old exhaust system was in place. Then conduct a "plug chop", per the age-old practice of properly jetting carbed bikes. Put several thousand miles at least on fresh plugs. Run the bike up to normal operating temp and normal operating RPMs, then as quickly as practically possible, "chop" the throttle and kill the motor ASAP before having the plugs out for a read. Wot you're after in this case is as "untainted" a read as possible from normal operating conditions. Many (myself included) do this at roadside for the most accurate read, carrying a second set of plugs for re-installation on the spot. When jetting carbs, one conducts plug chops at various conditions of throttle and load for a more "granular" read of the plugs, whereby re-jetting &/or raising or lowering the taper needle, cut the slide, etc. is performed, as indicated.

 

Of course, this behavior will no doubt be considered anal-retentive folly by many, who have never done it and/or never heard of it, and/or would never bother, regardless of the value it provides. <_ but if you don do this something close to it simply a fact that the read after at plugs will be masked some degree by changes low-throttle low-rpm running and longer continues before shut-down more masking effect show up on confusing correct read.>

 

Have fun.

 

I agree with all of this (so what's wrong with anal behavior?) except for one point. Plugs do clean up fairly quickly. As long as there is not a thick crust on the insulator they will change color in one drive cycle. Looking at his photos full size they appear dark but not caked. In the old days of carburetors and chokes, plugs would blacken on every start up and clean up to light tan right after warm up. This happens to a lesser degree with fuel injection as fueling is leaner across the board but when we talk about this marvelous Guzzi system best to do the extended ride at open throttle as I mentioned earlier and confirmed by senor Ratchet.

[Guest ratchethack]

I agree with all of this (so what's wrong with anal behavior?) except for one point. Plugs do clean up fairly quickly.

I b'lieve we're on the same page, Dan, possibly on the same paragraph. How d'you want to define "fairly quickly"? It's a relative term, ain't it?

 

Again,

A heavy carbon build-up on the plugs (as would appear likely, just by the darkness of the poor quality photos) established by many miles of running previous to the exhaust changes, would not be expected to immediately, (nor entirely) burn off with a relatively low number of miles

By the same token, how do I define relative terms, "not immediately" and "relatively low number of miles"??

 

Since we ain't got a clue "how quickly" or "how immediately" or what a "relatively low number of miles" means -- or even IF wot we're lookin' at are old or fresh plugs (or something in between) -- we're ummmmm, still kinda shootin' in the dark here, (so to speak). . .

 

Yes indeed. Some (but by no means all) of wot you read on plugs can change nearly instantaneously. Hence the development of the tried 'n true "plug chop" procedure.

[gavo]

Buy some new plugs,ride to a good stretch of road,stop and install new plugs,ride at say 4000rpm in top gear for couple of Ks. Hit kill switch and pull in clutch at same time roll to stop and pull the plugs this will give u an accurate plug reading in the area you most need to worry about