What to do about the vehicle manufacturing industry

[felix42o]

The hybrids (as they are now) have a big advantage in stop and go traffic, where the regenerative braking can help out the most (or so I have read). This is why the city ratings are higher than the highway, and also why the EPA's testing system is unreliable for the hybrids. As for the EV1, and most early electric and hybrid attempts, batteries have always been the big issue. The range just wasn't there, nor was the battery pricing / life expectancy. I doubt very seriously that any of the conspiracy theories out there hold any water.

As an aside, does anyone remember when Dodge introduced an early (say 1996 or so) hybrid based on the Intrepid sedan of the time? IIRC, it was all aluminum-bodied, used electric motors up front w/ a small gas engine, and got 80 MPG or so. There was a full write-up on it in Car and Driver or something, but I can't find it. I'll post a link if I come across it.

 

Edit: Here's the wiki story (fwiw), if interested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Intrepid_ESX

[dlaing]

Edit: Here's the wiki story (fwiw), if interested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Intrepid_ESX

Interesting.

Too bad they did not drop the composite body and just go with a hybrid diesel.

Diesels and electric should complement each other in a hybrid, with diesels being great for maintaining speed and electric being great for accelerating.

 

 

Getting back to motorcycles, Honda may get into the hybrid motorcycle game:

http://digg.com/autos/Honda_Planning_Hybrid_Motorcycle

Now, if Piaggio would beat them to the punch and just deliver with the plugin-hybrid MP3, better yet a plugin-hybrid Guzzi based on the ol' bacon slicers, simply replacing the flywheel for an electric motor!!!

 

Of course hybriding a motorcycle may be a waste of time considering motorcycles already (should) get decent fuel efficiency.

[belfastguzzi]

Of course hybriding a motorcycle may be a waste of time considering motorcycles already (should) get decent fuel efficiency.

And of course that is the great joke. Running my Moto Guzzi is more expensive than running a car, such as the VW Polo that I'm driving, for example.

The bike is a bad comparison of consumption on fuel, tyres, insurance... pretty much everything. Even parts. As we know.

[GuzziMoto]

Edit: Here's the wiki story (fwiw), if interested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Intrepid_ESX

They never sold or leased those cars to the public. Shame. The first concept seemed the best. Stop trying to make the internal combustion motor directly propel the vehicule. They work best at one speed, so hook them to a generator. Use electric motors to drive the vehicule.

[gstallons]

When it's all said and done, the fossil fuel compnies are NOT going to be deprived of their income. They will never allow something to be implemented or utilized on the highway that will pass their company store.

[pasotibbs]

What people forget is that bikes are geared and tuned for performance not economy because that's what we want !

If you want an economical bike buy an Enfield Bullet (they can easily do 85mpg) or a modern 125cc as they produce so little power the chains,tyres etc last longer as well .

When people complain to me about the economy of their modern 600cc Japenese sports bike I always remind them that seeing as how it spins twice as fast as a car engine and produces over 100bhp comparing the economy to a 1200-1400cc car is probably fairer than saying "but its half the size of my car so should do more miles etc"?

That said when I had an 1985 GPz550(air cooled ,8 valve, 4 cylinder) it was claimed to produce 65bhp at 10,500 rpm used to get at best 60-65mpg which at the time I thought was excellent,but Kawasaki's ran really lean back then (hence the severe carb icing issues we had in the UK) the models that followed produced less power and did fewer mpg !!

 

My 2 valve per cylinder 1100cc 5 speed Fiat produces a claimed (Italian!) 54bhp and does at best 50-55mpg(imp) on a steady motorway cruise (55-60mph) and maybe mid 30's urban so I find the Guzzi economy reasonable considering its a pushrod twin producing 50%(maybe) more power at not much more rpm, I'm sure it could be made a little better but that's also true of the car and I suspect is mostly down to emission laws etc!!

 

I'm sure a Fireblade could be tuned to give great mpg due to its light weight and high spec engine but would anyone buy it ?

[charlie b]

The oil companies don't have to force anything. The consumers won't pay the price for better fuel economy or alternative fuels.

 

And before anyone says science and mfg can make it cheaper, where are we going to mine all the materials for all those batteries, fuel cells, etc? How many hazardous waste production permits will be allowed for production of those devices?

 

The oil companies won't stop the advances, the environmentalists will.

 

charlie

[John in Leeds]

The oil companies don't have to force anything. The consumers won't pay the price for better fuel economy or alternative fuels.

 

IMHO that is not true - Oil and motor industry are in it for profit ONLY. They will 'guide' the public and governments towards the most profitable products. Anyone who believes corporations are in business for ecological or altruistic motives I think are mistaken.

 

And before anyone says science and mfg can make it cheaper, where are we going to mine all the materials for all those batteries, fuel cells, etc? How many hazardous waste production permits will be allowed for production of those devices?

 

The oil companies won't stop the advances, the environmentalists will.

 

charlie

 

My understanding is that in UK lead acid batteries are probably the most recycled product. Again I believe the same holds true with recycling - when it becomes profitable all will change.

[GuzziMoto]

True, profit drives corperations. Not idealism, not conspiracies. There is no great conspiracy to kill the electric car. No, oil companies aren't for them but they can't stop them. What will stop them (atleast for a while) is the market. It is hard to sell someone an electric car that can only go 40 miles on a charge. Or an electric gas hybrid that gets 20% better mileage but costs 40% more money. When they become economically feasable they will happen. The cost of the technology will come down and the cost of oil will go up. Eventually it will be cheaper to be green.

[John in Leeds]

True, profit drives corperations. Not idealism, not conspiracies. There is no great conspiracy to kill the electric car. No, oil companies aren't for them but they can't stop them. What will stop them (atleast for a while) is the market. It is hard to sell someone an electric car that can only go 40 miles on a charge. Or an electric gas hybrid that gets 20% better mileage but costs 40% more money. When they become economically feasable they will happen. The cost of the technology will come down and the cost of oil will go up. Eventually it will be cheaper to be green.

 

This profit driven manufacturer is producing electric only vehicles range up to 150 miles, speed limited to 50 mph. Now being purchased in quantity by TNT freight and Sainsbury supermarkets. Government action has helped to kick start this process, economies of scale will hopefully 'make it cheaper to be green'.

 

Smiths Electric Vehicles

 

I should add that as well as profit being a big driver, personal advancement of the very senior executives scores very highly too. In fact recent events show conclusively that is the biggest motivator taking priority over corporate profit. Personal advancement can be more than financial. It is hard to dismiss conspiraces when the profit element is unclear and the motivations of the decision makers are unknown.

[Tom M]

Here's a good story on some possible problems with switching to electric vehicles. The main point is some materials that are critical to electric cars are currently mined in unstable parts of the world.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.p...toryId=97295913

 

"Lithium-ion batteries require large amounts of cobalt, which comes primarily from the war-torn Democratic Republic of Congo, Tibet and Siberia. Easing dependence on foreign oil could mean increasing dependence on foreign minerals — from even less reliable trading partners than the Persian Gulf states." They also mention that China supplied 95% of the neodymium used in the world last year. Neodynium magnets are used in the electric motors and regenerative braking systems in hybrid and electric cars.

[raz]

Diesels and electric should complement each other in a hybrid, with diesels being great for maintaining speed and electric being great for accelerating.

I always wondered why a hybrid car like Toyota Prius is not made like diesel-electric trains. That is, electric motors are always used for the motion, and combustion - if needed - is for generating electric power only. Wouldn't that allow for much higher optimization of the combustion engine for a specific rpm? No compromises on intake or exhaust harmonics etc etc. No idle, no wasted power, all of it is fed to the batteries.

 

Sorry, I can't discuss politics, I'm a tech geek

[GuzziMoto]

I always wondered why a hybrid car like Toyota Prius is not made like diesel-electric trains. That is, electric motors are always used for the motion, and combustion - if needed - is for generating electric power only. Wouldn't that allow for much higher optimization of the combustion engine for a specific rpm? No compromises on intake or exhaust harmonics etc etc. No idle, no wasted power, all of it is fed to the batteries.

 

Sorry, I can't discuss politics, I'm a tech geek

That is the point of the Chevy Volt. It may turn out to be the first true hybrid, where like a diesel electric train the engine only generates electricity for the electric motors that propel the car. Current mainstream hybrids have been a disappointment to me. No politics involved.

Plus, you can plug it in to charge the batteries. If you only drive short trips the engine will hardly ever run. But if you drive for a longer distance and the batteries run down the engine fires up and charges the batteries. Stupidly brilliant.

[raz]

That is the point of the Chevy Volt. It may turn out to be the first true hybrid, where like a diesel electric train the engine only generates electricity for the electric motors that propel the car. Current mainstream hybrids have been a disappointment to me. No politics involved.

Plus, you can plug it in to charge the batteries. If you only drive short trips the engine will hardly ever run. But if you drive for a longer distance and the batteries run down the engine fires up and charges the batteries. Stupidly brilliant.

That is very interesting! I now also discovered you already told this some 16 posts ago, sorry. Anyway this confirms my idea was sane

 

I think this should also end up cheaper than the Prius type hybrid. I must google this little wonder.

[Guzzi2Go]

I always wondered why a hybrid car like Toyota Prius is not made like diesel-electric trains. That is, electric motors are always used for the motion, and combustion - if needed - is for generating electric power only. Wouldn't that allow for much higher optimization of the combustion engine for a specific rpm? No compromises on intake or exhaust harmonics etc etc. No idle, no wasted power, all of it is fed to the batteries.

 

Sorry, I can't discuss politics, I'm a tech geek

Too heavy. Add masses of a 100kW Diesel, 100kW Generator and 100kW Electric Motor, and you will be close to a ton. Add space needed, and a car will turn into a truck.

 

The idea of a hybrid car is to have a low power/high torque electric motor act as a filter against consumption surges coming from acceleration in a stop and go traffic. That is why they are efficient in the city, and comparable to normal cars on the highway (less efficient due to extra mass for batteries/electric motor). Trains run long distances at more or less constant speed. Traffic does not allow the same for cars.

 

In addition, I think it is a task of politics (or is it a policy?) to take care of a long term view and steer the market/industry in proper direction. Usually this is in a form of taxes, which makes it quite unpopular in countries where people are not used to being taxed. This is quite obvious in US, where car industry repeatedly runs into the kind of problems we are seeing now. The entire society is set up according to the "resources are abundant" premise, and as soon as supply is disturbed everything turns upside down.