Puzzling questions

[Guest ratchethack]

OK, got it. Thanks Rocker.

 

I did have to wonder how one has a "left-hand" vs. "right-hand" tank slapper, since tank-slappers make use of both sides equally. (Yes I have, multiple times, but never on a Guzzi.) Seems he meant he hit the left steering stop.

[Dan M]

?? ??

 

Why any question at all about the fork locking up, and what gives you the idea it did??

 

I don't find any mention of the fork locking anywhere -- in any of his posts.

 

In fact, in his OP, Pavel posted:

 

I believe guzzimoto is saying the forks turned all the way to one side referring to the steering stop as full lock. It find it easy to accept that the original poster had this condition (fork turned to the stop) after the tire locked up. Simply a matter of the tire sliding out.

I also think the tire simply lost traction for reasons other than faulty brakes.

 

edit: oops, rocker beat me to it.

[rocker59]

I also think the tire simply lost traction for reasons other than faulty brakes.

 

Yeah. I think it's a traction issue. Either old tires or dirty pavement, or both.

[Guest ratchethack]

I also think the tire simply lost traction for reasons other than faulty brakes.

Yeah. I think it's a traction issue. Either old tires or dirty pavement, or both.

+1 = 3.

 

If we had the age of the tire, or at least the mfgr and model, I reckon it'd be lots easier to wrap this up.

 

EDIT: Yeah, I thought so. Just had to check (see below). You guys are more'n likely rained-in too.

 

It's been ka-bucketing down like ark weather here all day.

[GuzziMoto]

?? ??

 

What gives you the idea the fork "went full lock"??

 

You mentioned it no less than 7 times, but I don't find any mention of the fork locking anywhere -- in any of his posts.

 

In fact, in his OP, Pavel posted:

 

Sorry Ratch. It's a racing term. Did not mean to confuse.

As said it means the forks turned all the way to the stop.

[Guest ratchethack]

Sorry Ratch. It's a racing term. Did not mean to confuse.

As said it means the forks turned all the way to the stop.

OOOOOh. Well that explains it alright. Thanks.

 

No wonder I didn't pick up on "forks going full lock".

 

You see, I'm neither a Boy Racer, nor BR Wannabee -- not by any stretch -- merely an unrepentant Road Geez.

[GuzziMoto]

OOOOOh. Well that explains it alright. Thanks.

 

No wonder I didn't pick up on "forks going full lock".

 

You see, I'm neither a Boy Racer, nor BR Wannabee -- not by any stretch -- merely an unrepentant Road Geez.

 

I'm no "Boy Racer" either. Just an old racer who was smart enough to live long enough to become an old racer.

[kecup]

Since you've called for answers to puzzling Q's, Pavel, somebody just has to ask the obvious in return.

 

Doesn't this qualify you as a perpetually bouncing Czech?

 

Just a small joke. (OK -- very small)

 

 

Indeed. Unfortunately I am bouncing back home for CH so the guzzi issues has to wait to be solved. A winter there, might be a pair of skis I will try to master for the rest of the year, instead of the front end braking. A hole in my leg from the last accident seems to get better too:)

[kecup]

Sorry kecup, didn't mean to imply you didn't know how to ride. Just trying to cover all the bases here. You were looking for answers, right?

 

I understand, the second accident happened at very controlled situation under not so hard braking. That is what puzzles me most.

 

Pavel

[kecup]

Makes no difference wotsoever, Gene. All traditionally mounted calipers -- single disk, dual disk, up, down, front or rear mounted calipers, have ZERO effect on steering, regardless of front fork or rear swingarm. Same with a dual disk front where only one caliper is operational.

 

Anti-dive forks work by mounting the rear-mounted caliper on a floating caliper carrier with a linkage arm anchored to the upper, suspended part of the fork. Braking forces in this case are transferred to the chassis, cancelling out brake dive. If you were to mount a floating anti-dive front caliper in front rather than in the rear, it would compound brake dive.

 

 

Sorry to bring you guys to the original matter- but if what you say is correct (I agree) that my problem is not one calliper binding as suggested by someone earlier. I remember now last year back home I hit a tram track with my XT660X yamaha (a supermotard want-to-be, not for sale in us, one single huge brembo disc in front) under heavy breaking resulting in a wheel lock and some 3 meter slide (measured post-partum). I had no problem with the bike, absolutely not effect on steering. What the hell is my problem with guzzi then? The second accident happened in perfectly calm situation, no heavy breaking at all.

[kecup]

The OP was about the front brake locking up, followed by the forks going full lock. Others may have speculated on the cause of the forks going full lock but, I'm sorry to say, I'm confident in saying the forks went full lock due to the front tire locking up. It is a normal part of crashing when the front tire locks. It doesn't have to happen but it often does. I don't think the forks going full lock is the root of his problem but merely an after-effect of the forks locking. The question in my opinion, is why are the forks locking. The part about one caliper sticking or binding has more to do with causing a problem with the brakes and nothing to do with the forks going full lock after the front tire locks up.

 

 

As far as I remember I had a front wheel lock followed by nice squeel and mark on the road with both of my monsters, yamaha xt660x motard and frj1300 and the guzzi. In all but the guzzi I was able to control the bike and actually have some fun from it (monsters). All other bikes had up and wide handlebars, only guzzi has narrow bars, so the leverage is much smaller. I agree that when wheel locks some bikes can have a tendency to go for a fork lock. That leading to the question why the wheel locked so easily on guzzi. I swear the braking I did was just light in both accidents.

[kecup]

OK, got it. Thanks Rocker.

 

I did have to wonder how one has a "left-hand" vs. "right-hand" tank slapper, since tank-slappers make use of both sides equally. (Yes I have, multiple times, but never on a Guzzi.) Seems he meant he hit the left steering stop.

 

My apologies, I meant "hit the left steering stop". It's my Czenglish. Speaking 4 languages but none learnt proper unfortunately. Many times I doubt that about my native.

[kecup]

+1 = 3.

 

If we had the age of the tire, or at least the mfgr and model, I reckon it'd be lots easier to wrap this up.

 

EDIT: Yeah, I thought so. Just had to check (see below). You guys are more'n likely rained-in too.

 

It's been ka-bucketing down like ark weather here all day.

 

here you go, checked the front tyre SEVERAL times for all it is branded to it: always found just this - VLK1606. 16th week of 2006? That would count the tire out, no?

[mdude]

Long interesting rant, this.

 

I slammed my 2001 Greenie to the road last spring in just the same manner as the gentleman here. Slow (30km/h) speed, smooth tarmac, straight road. Almost no steering damper applied.

Tankslapper came instantly and broke my wrist (cause I'm a gorilla; I dont let go of things that I like), and down we went.

 

First: I probably braked harder than I thought at first, the Brembos are massively powerful and bite progressively harder. Its strange because my wifes Laverda has exactly the same brakes (diff. master cylinder) and they feel infinitely better with a very smooth linear force. One can brake the Laverda just by looking at the brake handle. So I guess I snapped the brakes. And as we all know the spineframe doesnt like sudden inputs. Weight transfer is slow, but a lot of weight comes forward in the end, and all that. Binding fork? Maybe. Mine has new progressive springs from Wilbers in them. Not quite right concerning sag settings, but not that much off. Steering pull? As someone said, you need two front tires to achieve steering pull dont you.

 

But most importantly: my tires were OLD-OLD-OLD BT020s. Probably 5 yrs. They lose traction, they bite, they slide, they throw you off.

 

After rebuild and changing to MZ6 EVERYTHING feels better. And I also apply some clicks to the steering damper. Has had a couple of hard brakings after that but no unruliness. I am very careful about applying brake progressively. Again: V11s dont like hustling.

Also: a check on all bike accidents in the two last years up here revealed that 80%!! of the crashed bikes (solo acc.) had tire pressures that were way off. And we are talking "experienced" drivers on high profile brand new superbikes here.... Tires tires tires tires: pressure, age, condition!

 

Merry christmas, thanks for another enlightened year.

[GuzziMoto]

Sorry to bring you guys to the original matter- but if what you say is correct (I agree) that my problem is not one calliper binding as suggested by someone earlier. I remember now last year back home I hit a tram track with my XT660X yamaha (a supermotard want-to-be, not for sale in us, one single huge brembo disc in front) under heavy breaking resulting in a wheel lock and some 3 meter slide (measured post-partum). I had no problem with the bike, absolutely not effect on steering. What the hell is my problem with guzzi then? The second accident happened in perfectly calm situation, no heavy breaking at all.

 

One last time. The forks hitting the left steering stop is a pretty normal thing when the front brakes lock. It doesn't have to be the left steering stop. That's either coincedence or a result of you weighting the bars heavier on one side then the other (or something else, it doesn'y matter).

The issue is the brakes locking up. And that could be caused by one of the calipers binding or unevenly worn pads (possibly relating to the fact that you put used pads on new disks). If one caliper binds and doesn't work, not only do you only have one caliper doing the actual braking (which has NOTHING to do with the forks hitting the steering stop) but the master cylinder is sized for two calipers so the ration between it and just the one caliper is all wrong. The result is brakes that may have a fair bit of power but, more importantly, no feel. That could cause you to lock the front without getting any warning or feel from the bike. This is only one of many possibilities and may not be what's wrong with your bike. But either something is wrong with your brakes or your tires if your front is locking up for no reason.