Tech Session - brakes

[docc]

As a shameless cross post from the "Meetings, Clubs & Events" forum, I propose to check rotor temperatures in the same sloppy, unscientific manner we checked rear drive temperatures last year. The infrared device seems accurate enough; it's just all the other variables that are impossible to sort (pads, fluid, maintenance, braking habits . . .).

 

The venue is the Fif' South'n Spine Raid In Newport, Tennessee, near the VA/NC borders.

 

Dust off those Spine Frame "collector's items" and bring them out for the celebration!

[dlaing]

I am interested in your results, especially of temperatures after cruising for miles then coasting to a stop.

I sometimes use my hand to test my rear rotor for excessive heat, as it is a good indicator of sticking pistons.

But be careful, you can burn yourself doing it my method...infrared meters are a better bet.

[gstallons]

That's why I own an infra-red temp gun. I grew tired of screaming "F**K" after touching hot surfaces.

When it warms up I will do this, Monday is supposed to start out in single digit temps. I don't think my bike will get out of the shop if it's that cold.

[docc]

Lots of folks on the tech forum never look elsewhere, but: check this out: come ride, hobnob, and otherwise hang out!

 

Just three months away: the Fif' South'n Spine Raid

 

Have your rotor temps probed, explore the nuances of grappa, meander into the climbs and descents of the Appalachians. It ain't the Long Way Down, but I guarantee there will be no AK47s at the border crossings into Virginia and Kentucky.

[Greg Field]

You wanna make them rotors hot, get the Brembo RCS m/c and give a squeeze . . .

[docc]

Are those pads or a caliper system?

[Guest ratchethack]

Are those pads or a caliper system?

It's a radial master cylinder.

 

Brembo 19RCS

Boy Racer blingery.

 

No, it won't do anything for a V11 Guzzi, other than making it suddenly lots more dangerous on the road, and (very temporarily) allowing a Boy Racer to b'lieve he's suddenly invincible.

 

Oh -- and it's good for at least a coupla Parking Lot Poser Points, I suppose.

[Dan M]

No, it won't do anything for a V11 Guzzi, other than making it suddenly lots more dangerous on the road, and (very temporarily) allowing a Boy Racer to b'lieve he's suddenly invincible.

 

Most boy racers I've come across already believe they're invincible. :!:

[Guest ratchethack]

Most boy racers I've come across already believe they're invincible. :!:

Agreed. But seems to me most require lots o' Boy Racer Blingery to prop up the popular delusion (however temporarily).

 

Ergo, the existence of entire cottage industries to feed the demand, and the highest-margin segment o' the entire hard-scrabble moto consumer market.

 

The woods 'r full of 'em. . . And waddayagonna do?

[Motomonster]

Well, the RCS certainly helped my bike out a lot. I bought my 2000 V11 used and the front brakes were very inconsistent: sometimes they were fine but most of the time they were mushy. They were never great. New fluid didn't help. Jason at MI diagnosed it as a problem with the master cylinder. Over the weekend Greg and I tacked one of these things on my bike and the difference is dramatic. We also changed the front rotors to a thicker set from a Ballabio.

 

Since my stock set up was obviously not working right, I can't say if it would be worth it for someone with properly working brakes. I can say that my brakes now work very well: the bike slows to a stop much more rapidly with excellent feedback. I tried both settings and didn't feel like I was going to lock up the front easily. I never even got the tire to howl. I can also say they work better and give better feedback than the brakes on my Ducati.

 

I don't believe I'm invincible but I do believe my bike will now stop in a hurry if need be. If this makes me a deluded fake-ass racer boy poser, then so be it.

[Tom M]

My bike has a Brembo radial master cylinder on it, though not the RCS model, and I'm really happy with it. I've never had a problem with it. I can't compare it to the stock MC since the radial unit was on my bike when I bought it, but I can't believe it's made my bike "lots more dangerous". It does fail miserably in the parking lot pose off though. No one has ever noticed it! Maybe I should glue a belt buckle to my fairing to attract some attention?

[Guest ratchethack]

Just an increasingly rare observation that runs counter to the GROUPTHINK foolishness I bear witness to on a more or less continual basis. . .

 

No comments directed at anyone in particular.

 

At all times (OK, at least some times), I strive to be an equal opportunity offender.

 

I fully expect that a great wallopping consensus will swear on a stack o' multiple copies o' Guzziology that they can all out-brake better-balanced bikes of 200 lb. lower weight with a radial master vs. the "pedestrian grade" OE Brembo with their ~550-lb. V11's, and that less effort at the lever magically translates directly into shorter stopping distances on the track, without any negative trade-offs wotsoever for general purpose road riding.

 

Such beliefs, though as common as dirt, are false, I'm afraid, and can be, have been (and often are) dangerous.

 

The annual weekend meat wagon Siren Parades through the local mountain canyons are already fully underway this year here. . . it's shaping up into another record season. . .

[GuzziMoto]

Better quality braking components are a good thing. Replacing a stock brake component on your Guzzi with one of higher quality is a good thing. It will not make the bike "dangerous". That is ignorant.

Replacing your stock master cylinder with a radial unit of higher quality (individual brand preferences aside) can improve the power and feel of the brakes. It will not improve the talent of the person riding the bike, but that is your problem.

[Guest ratchethack]

Better quality braking components are a good thing. Replacing a stock brake component on your Guzzi with one of higher quality is a good thing. It will not make the bike "dangerous". That is ignorant.

Replacing your stock master cylinder with a radial unit of higher quality (individual brand preferences aside) can improve the power and feel of the brakes. It will not improve the talent of the person riding the bike, but that is your problem.

Tell me, GMoto, if you please -- exactly what makes a radial master cylinder "better" than the OE unit -- for use on the road, since that's where 99.999999.....% of us, including myself AND yourself -- unless I miss my presumption? -- ride our Guzzi's 100% of the time?

 

For 100% road riding use:

 

1. Have you found that properly functioning OE Brembo brakes are insufficiently powerful? Please advise.

 

2. Have you found that properly functioning OE Brembo brakes lack sufficient "feel"? Please advise (Part II).

 

3. Have you found that properly functioning OE Brembo brakes fade to an unacceptable degree? Please advise (Part III).

 

4. Have you found that properly functioning OE Brembo brakes provide insufficient stopping distances? Please advise (Part IV).

 

5. Using any of the above common brake performance characteristics, please specify the differences between OE Brembo master cylinder performance and radial master cylinder performance quantitatively, and draw a contrast that clearly defines the performance delta between them, (again, for road use ONLY) if you can.

 

HINT: Sorry, but "an improvement" IS NOT a quantitative difference. Quantitatively speaking, if it can't be measured, it doesn't exist.

 

Enquiring minds. . . (well, you know). . .

[GuzziMoto]

Tell me, GMoto, if you please -- exactly what makes a radial master cylinder "better" than the OE unit -- for use on the road, since that's where 99.999999.....% of us, including myself AND yourself -- unless I miss my presumption? -- ride our Guzzi's 100% of the time?

 

For 100% road riding use:

 

1. Have you found that properly functioning OE Brembo brakes are insufficiently powerful? Please advise.

 

2. Have you found that properly functioning OE Brembo brakes lack sufficient "feel"? Please advise (Part II).

 

3. Have you found that properly functioning OE Brembo brakes fade to an unacceptable degree? Please advise (Part III).

 

4. Have you found that properly functioning OE Brembo brakes provide insufficient stopping distances? Please advise (Part IV).

 

5. Using any of the above common brake performance characteristics, please specify the differences between OE Brembo master cylinder performance and radial master cylinder performance quantitatively, and draw a contrast that clearly defines the performance delta between them, (again, for road use ONLY) if you can.

 

HINT: Sorry, but "an improvement" IS NOT a quantitative difference. Quantitatively speaking, if it can't be measured, it doesn't exist.

 

Enquiring minds. . . (well, you know). . .

Part of what makes a "radial" master cylinder better is that it offers a more direct path for the force from your hand squeezing the lever. The other part of the equation is that it is a higher quality piece than the mass produced stock part. To answer your questions,

1. I have not found that the stock brakes are not powerful enough, but I have found that they require more effort per unit of braking force than a higher quality setup provides.

2. Yes, they lack feel. This is something that people will likely not have an issue with unless they have ridden bikes with better brake feel. Once you get used to better brake feel, what seemed acceptable before is no longer. If yo can not feel the difference, that does not mean it is not there, only that you are not able to feel something that others can. I can not measure your ego, does that mean it does not exist?

3. No, I have not found them to be prone to fading on the street, but a radial master cylinder has little to do with that anyway.

4. Occasionally I have found that the stopping distance of the stock equipped bike is a little long for my tastes. This has not been a major issue as I tend to leave extra room for stopping on the street. But on the street unexpected things happen, and it is better to have a larger margin of safety rather than a smaller one.

5. A high quality radial master cylinder will give you more stopping power for less effort due to the better path for the energy of your hand. It also will give you better feel of that energy to allow you to modulate the brakes better. This would allow you to maintain a higher level of braking with a larger margin of safety, with the obvious result of shorter stopping distances should the need arise.

 

Note, all this is dependant on the riders ability to take advantage of the improvements. If you suck as a rider, a higher quality master cylinder, radial or not, will not make you a better rider. I can't help you there.

 

Edit; Normally I ride my Guzzi on the street, but both my wife and I have been known to take part in sanctioned parking lot racing and an occasional track day every couple of years to blow out the cob webs. If you don't polish your skills every now and then they rust.