Tech Session - brakes

[Guest ratchethack]

. . .Normally I ride my Guzzi on the street, but both my wife and I have been known to take part in sanctioned parking lot racing and an occasional track day every couple of years to blow out the cob webs. If you don't polish your skills every now and then they rust.

 

Hm. I can't imagine doing anything voluntarily with a Guzzi in a parking lot besides parking. I must lack imagination. Seems I polish my riding skills every day on the road, and whenever I can get away, weather and time permitting, on the local mountain, canyon, and back-coutry roads, which I find infinitely more challenging -- and rewarding -- than the idea of any track, anywhere, let alone a parking lot. But that's just me, and to each his own. Since I'll likely never ride on a track, track skills would seem to have limited value to Yours Truly.

 

Since you didn't cite any, it would seem that there are ZERO QUANTIFIABLE DIFFERENCES WHATSOEVER between a radial master and the OE Brembo master, eh, GMoto?

 

That leaves us with entirely subjective differences such as "feel".

 

I find this fascinating. Leave us now open up this enchilada and explore its innards a little further, point by point, shall we?

Part of what makes a "radial" master cylinder better is that it offers a more direct path for the force from your hand squeezing the lever. The other part of the equation is that it is a higher quality piece than the mass produced stock part.

Here we have a 100% unquantified, "better" once again. Desipte the directness of my question, you failed to QUANTIFY exactly how a "more direct path for the force from your hand" improves stopping power, feel, fade, stopping distance, or anything else on the road. What does "a higher quality piece" have to do with a quantifiable improvement if you can't even describe what makes it higher quality -- let alone put a quantifiable measurement on it? No quantifiable difference, nor "improvement" of any kind there, then.

 

1. I have not found that the stock brakes are not powerful enough, but I have found that they require more effort per unit of braking force than a higher quality setup provides.

Unless you find OE braking effort at the lever excessive (I don't by any stretch), is less effort some kind of "advantage" for road use? I can easily howl the front tire to the point of full lockup (yes, I have, multiple times, with enough "feel" to modulate accordingly with full control) with two fingers with the OE Brembos without any strain wotsoever. Would my brakes be "better" for my purposes if I could accomplish this with one finger? I think not, and I seriously doubt if this is just me. No quantifiable difference, nor "improvement" of any kind there, then (Part II).

 

2. Yes, they lack feel. This is something that people will likely not have an issue with unless they have ridden bikes with better brake feel. Once you get used to better brake feel, what seemed acceptable before is no longer. If yo can not feel the difference, that does not mean it is not there, only that you are not able to feel something that others can. I can not measure your ego, does that mean it does not exist?

So in order to comprehend what I don't know I'm missing with better "feel", I need to experience the difference, and since I believe my OE brakes provide among the very best "feel" in terms of feedback of any of the dozen bikes I've owned, and among the very best of any of the couple of dozen more I've ridden, I'm missing out on "better feel"? Quite possibly, GMoto -- but since this is just a road-going 550 lb. behemoth locomotive of a Sport bike -- this is just me, but I find the "feel" and "feedback" to be nothing short of superb, as is. I'd go so far to say that it's even overkill for my purposes in this department. No quantifiable difference, nor "improvement" of any kind there, then (Part III).

 

3. No, I have not found them to be prone to fading on the street, but a radial master cylinder has little to do with that anyway.

No quantifiable difference, nor "improvement" of any kind there, then (Part IV).

 

4. Occasionally I have found that the stopping distance of the stock equipped bike is a little long for my tastes. This has not been a major issue as I tend to leave extra room for stopping on the street. But on the street unexpected things happen, and it is better to have a larger margin of safety rather than a smaller one.

Once again, you failed to quantify shorter stopping distances, as I had specifically asked, GMoto. No quantifiable difference, nor improvement there, then (Part V).

 

5. A high quality radial master cylinder will give you more stopping power for less effort due to the better path for the energy of your hand. It also will give you better feel of that energy to allow you to modulate the brakes better. This would allow you to maintain a higher level of braking with a larger margin of safety, with the obvious result of shorter stopping distances should the need arise.

You seem to've dodged my question #5 entirely, without so much as an attempt, and went all the way back to a re-do of #1 again, and the same old unquantified "better" again -- as in plural. No quantifiable difference, nor improvement there, then (Part II of Part I)

 

To repeat my question from #5 above:

 

Using any of the above common brake performance characteristics, please specify the differences between OE Brembo master cylinder performance and radial master cylinder performance

quantitatively

, and draw a contrast that clearly defines the

performance delta

between them, (again, for road use ONLY) if you can.

PLEASE FOCUS ON JUST THIS QUESTION^ AND REPLY (second request).

 

Note, all this is dependant on the riders ability to take advantage of the improvements. If you suck as a rider, a higher quality master cylinder, radial or not, will not make you a better rider. I can't help you there.

GMoto, per another post in another thread, you seem to have a habit of launching a rather pointed innuendo toward others (myself specifically) as an inferior rider, along with the equally pointed implication that you and your wife are superior riders. Now a positive self-image for you and your wife is truly a wonderful thing, GMoto. But based on imagined superiority over someone whose riding skills couldn't possibly be known to you in any way wotsoever, I reckon this is a mighty slim basis for bolstering your self-image and that of your wife. But if that's all you've got, and you feel the need to fling the "my skills are better than yours" canard. . . Have you repeatedly made this assumption because I ask you questions that you can't answer? How, exactly do you figure this reflects on my riding ability?

 

Enquiring minds. . . (well, you know). . .

[Dan M]

Gee, and Docc was just inviting us to his gig. (something that has caught my interest) Seems like a great bunch of guys in the south east.

 

 

So far as actual braking action goes, the stock Brembos are a terrific set up. The stockers can easily overcome the traction of a modern sport tire even with two fingers on the lever. Radially mounted 4 pad calipers and radial master cylinders allow for more bite but their main attraction is feel. The direct action of a radial master will give a slightly more precise feel and slightly more power but the difference without the addition of stiff radially mounted calipers is somewhat wasted. Can that feel be measured? No. Is there a palpable difference? Sure. There will be less lever effort but the question is who needs it if you can lock the front wheel with two fingers. It is pretty easy for a seasoned rider to brake to the edge of lock up with the stock set up.

 

So the question is why do the upgrade? I think if most were honest they would say bling. I don't find anything wrong with that, everybody can spend their own money as they please. God knows I've spent unreasonable amounts for marginal gains on my bike, it's just something I like to do. Will a radial master make you faster in parking lots? I highly doubt it. There is still a bit of lipstick being applied to pigs here. Let's admit it.

[savagehenry]

MOST of my bikes were two drums, "Hands JUST BEFORE feet for maximum braking" style Now, with the stock braking system, I use 1 finger all the time, 'purt near all the time... but I STILL WANT the RBC lever...I paid OUT THE BUTT fer the Ohlins package (and I ride solo, so NOBODY cares a wit "about the BLING, [whatever THAT is? [to sub-text even further...]...and there's alot of somebody else's $ in motor upgrades...EVERY UPGRADE is FELT by the guy who loves his motorcycle...God/science, Nature/Nuture, Ying/Yang...take yer pick.

Alas,Docc, I probably can't make it, but it sounds like a shitload of fun...

[Dan M]

[/i] I ride solo, so NOBODY cares a wit "about the BLING, [whatever THAT is? [to sub-text even further...]...and there's alot of somebody else's $ in motor upgrades...EVERY UPGRADE is FELT by the guy who loves his motorcycle...God/science, Nature/Nuture, Ying/Yang...take yer pick.

Alas,Docc, I probably can't make it, but it sounds like a shitload of fun...

 

Have you never added anything to your bike just because you liked it? Shit, a paint job is bling, serves no function, it is just what the owner wants for himself. To each his own. I'm just saying that many "performance" mods are done because the guy wants it. The performance gain is not realized or utilized.

[savagehenry]

Have you never added anything to your bike just because you liked it? Shit, a paint job is bling, serves no function, it is just what the owner wants for himself. To each his own. I'm just saying that many "performance" mods are done because the guy wants it. The performance gain is not realized or utilized.

Sorry, Maybe I wasn't clear,

My point was that the stock braking system is MORE THAN adequate for the average (and +) street ride.

I DO believe if the owner is happy, NO ONE else matters. I just meant that I've spent WAY more than I had ever spent on a bike... AND it was TOTALLY worth it

Per my last Post: "EVERY UPGRADE is FELT by the guy who loves his motorcycle"

N'also, BUY at a LOCAL DEALER/SOURCE, when feasible, SUPPORT your LOCAL tax base...

[GuzziMoto]

Clearly if you ride any Guzzi, you care not only about performance that can be measured but more importantly you care about performance that CAN NOT be measured. Otherwise, you would likely ride a Honda. There is not much, if anything, that a Guzzi can do measureably that a Honda cannot do better. But there are many things in life that cannot be measured that are worth having. I, for one, prefer the way a Guzzi feels to the feel of a Honda.

There is also the issue of better performance through higher quality parts and/or better feel. You can measure the shorter stopping distances that better brakes provide. I have not done so because I have better things to do. If anyone else is bored and feels the need, go right ahead. Do you or I NEED those better brakes and the feel and shorter stoppng distances they provide? That is a personal question much like whether or no to own a Guzzi is. Not everybody wants or needs better brakes, some people may want them but not need them and some may not want them at all. But if someone does want them the fact that someone else does not want or need them has little relevance.

If my pointing out that better brakes will do a poor rider little or no good makes you feel like you are being attacked, oh well.

If you think pushing your limits on the street is a good way to polish your skills, then I hope to never be riding around you. That is just wrong. The street is a bad place to push the limits. Where I'm from we would call those people "squids". My guess is you did not really mean that you push the limits on the street. I hope you meant that you are content to ride on the streets and consider riding itself an act of "polishing your skills". That is not polishing your skills in my book, but it's a free country.

[Dan M]

I just meant that I've spent WAY more than I had ever spent on a bike... AND it was TOTALLY worth it

 

Italian bikes and Italian women have a way of getting into your pockets

[Guest ratchethack]

Ever grab too much front brake, purely as a reflex? How much is "too much"? Loss of control of the bike would be the primary symptom. I have countless times -- fortunately, all but a precious few of these times were riding offroad, where the downside consequences were slim to none. Reflexes can (and do) overwhelm any skill level. I suggest that unless and/or until any rider unintentionally locks a front wheel multiple times and experiences the consequences, he/she won't have much of an understanding of -- or feel for -- front brake control, nor will he/she possess the skill tempered by experience that it takes to effectively brake approaching the limit of any motorcycle's potential, under anything close to optimum conrol.

 

This will no doubt draw more hostile ground fire, but by my 40+ years experience with learning mastery of front brake control (still in process), I believe there simply is no skill level immune to an instantaneous brain stem reflex that takes over when something like a boulder as big as a house or a huge oak suddenly closes distance, looming up from around a blind curve, blocking out one's entire field of view within a matter of seconds. Yes, I've had this, and similar things happen many times (offroad of course).

 

I have always considered offroad riding to be the very best possible training ground for road riding and mastery of motorcycle control. I'm sure there are those who disagree with this, but there you have it.

 

On the road with the Guzzi, I've also experienced a giant SUV instantly go sideways, all four tires locked, suddenly closing distance directly in front of me (no available space around either side) at a rate that made me grab too much of what I consider far more than adequately powerful and superbly controllable OE front Brembos. Though I managed to miss the SUV, I did go down, suffering relatively minor damage. Had I not over-reacted by reflexively grabbing too much front brake and locking the front wheel, I may or may not have gone down, and may or may not have hit the SUV.

 

It might be rationally argued that if my Big Brembos hadn't been so powerful or sensitive, I might not have locked them up, and might not have gone down.

 

Yeah, I suppose it might also be rationally argued that there are riders of superior skill to my own who MIGHT NOT have gone down in the identical curcumstances, powerful and sensitive as the OE Brembos are. But I'll bet that regardless of skill level, there are circumstances that can and do cause ANY rider of any skill and experience level to reflexively act much the same.

 

I'm just suggesting that going with a "more powerful" brake that takes less effort at the lever to lock up, one being "more sensitive" than the next, can have significant down-side negative trade-offs (and negative consequences) on the road. Brakes can indeed be "too powerful" and "too sensitive" -- especially for road use. Anyone who disagrees with this is welcome to have at it, but I b'lieve you'd be hard up against reality and significant facts to the contrary.

 

On the track, where the environment is much more consistent and uniformly controlled than on any street or back road anywhere, the only likely situation that could ever likely inspire an overwhelming reflexive lock of a front brake might be rider(s) unexpectedly going down immediately in one's path. On the road, I suggest that the number of suddenly developing potential brake locking scenarios (whether in traffic or on mountain and canyon roads) are relative orders of magnitude less predictable, far more frequent, and virtually limitless in nature, relatively speaking.

 

Brakes can easily be designed so that someone with the strength of a child can easily lock them up. Is there anyone still reading this who has any doubt that Guzzi (and countless other OEMs) easily could have -- and likely would have -- spec'd "more powerful" and "more sensitive" front brakes if they believed there were some overwhelming advantage of doing so for average riders?

 

Now for dedicated track use, a professional racer might prefer something approaching a child-level of effort. But on the road, I wouldn't want anything close -- under any circumstances. In fact, on the road, you couldn't get me to ride a bike with a front brake much more sensitive than the OE Brembo setup, let alone shell out $400 USD (the going retail price with tax here) for a radial master, nor radial calipers, nor "racing" pads.

 

But o' course, that's just me, and what do I know, I ain't no Boy Racer -- nor a BR Wannabe. I'm merely a dedicated Road Geez.

 

And without any Q, somebody's M is certainly always gonna V.

[docc]

I tried applying the infra-red calorometer to the posts above, but didn't find any 'measurable' difference in the 'heat' so I guess we're all still getting along.

 

I hope we get more Spine Frames and V11s at this year's Spine Raid. Last year we were outnumbered by Tontis and CARCs. They're nice bikes and I enjoyed all the folks who came. Still, I sure enjoy comparing the spine frame variants. It's amazing how many things, large and small, changed over their model course.

 

As for brakes, I think, yeah, they're good to have. I use 'em.

[belfastguzzi]

...something like a boulder as big as a house or a huge oak suddenly closes distance, looming up from around a blind curve, blocking out one's entire field of view within a matter of seconds. Yes, I've had this, and similar things happen many times... I've also experienced a giant SUV instantly go sideways, all four tires locked, suddenly closing distance directly in front of me (no available space around either side)

 

Paranoid – moi?

 

I have always considered offroad riding to be the very best possible training ground for road riding and mastery of motorcycle control.

 

That's what he said! He said parking-lot! That's what he said!

[Baldini]

...Seems I polish my riding skills every day on the road, and whenever I can get away, weather and time permitting, on the local mountain, canyon, and back-coutry roads, which I find infinitely more challenging -- and rewarding -- than the idea of any track...Since I'll likely never ride on a track, track skills would seem to have limited value to Yours Truly. ...

 

Ratchethack, The track is not another planet - it's just another road! The difference is that a lot of the unknowns are eliminated (such as big boulders & giant fwd's); you can explore the limits of your bike & your ability in a more predictable environment. Surely any knowledge/experience of behaviour at the extremes benefits ability to deal with situations day to day. Eg - I've seen people go straight into the scenery in corners on the road because they simply didn't feel they could lean anymore, tho they were probably only at 50% of the bike/tyres capability in that circumstance. Tracktime can give you knowledge of lean angles, braking, handling etc which, whilst may be foolish to exploit in normal road riding, may be useful in an unforseen, extreme event on the road. So long as you don't confuse the two environments. So get out there one time, you might find the doing of it more rewarding than the idea of it!

 

As to the RMC - if it gives better brakes/better feel at brakes & you can use that - great! I don't see why you need to, or how you could, easily quantify that. As someone else pointed out, just because something isn't measured doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If you can't use them, you don't need them & as you pointed out, may well be better off without them. If you want it cos it looks nice, then fine!

 

KB

[gavo]

If you can lock the front wheel your brakes are powerfull enough. Feel and fade are something that can be tailored to suit the rider and are a personal preference, my stock V11 works for me as I know its not a full on sports bike (too bloody heavy) my ducati 160kgs, 300mm twin rotors,Tokico 4 spot calipers,1992 900ss master cylinder never locked the front but lifted the rear 2 foot in an emergency stop with 2 fingers. Which is better, it's like comparing apples to oranges because of the weight difference. Go with your preference whether the benifits are real or imagined its your bike. As for boy racers and polishing your skills I think there's a bit of boy racer in us all otherwise we'd ride cruisers. polishing your skills implies improvement but unless you push your boundries you'll never improve and the safest place to do that is on the track, ageed the local mountain pass can be more interesting but its not the place to test your limits And to anyone who's never tried a track day give it a go they cater for all abilities and it can be addictive., no police,no dogs,no oil,no soccer mums,etc

[GuzziMoto]

I'm probably going to regret pointing this out, but "locking the front wheel" is more a measure of poor braking technic then it is braking power. The fact that you can lock the front wheel if you grab a big hand full of brakes all at once is a measure of brake performance about as much as doing a burnout is a measure of horsepower.

[Dan M]

In the December issue of MCN ( www.mcnews.com ) there is a test of the Aprilia Tuono and when on the subject of brakes they make this point:

 

"...Dual Brembo Gold Line four piston, four pad, radial-mount calipers squeezing big floating 320mm rotors. Compared to two-pad calipers, the extra leading edges increase initial bite and power, and allow for smaller pads that don't need such a wide swept area (thus reducing unsprung weight). But they can sometimes create their own issues, and the Ducati 1098 is a good example, with pads so aggressive and an initial bite so ferocious that its brakes actually feel too powerful for routine street use. Thankfully Aprilia's less aggressive pad compound avoids this problem..."

 

Evidently more people feel that racing brakes are too much for the street.

 

Edit: What the hell is a technic? I sure don't want to have poor technics on my bike.

[Guest ratchethack]

Let's face it, Dan. When it comes to the irrepressible allure of bolt-on go-faster blingery, a surprising number of people's balance beams seem to be pegged off-kilter.

 

There's a great wallopping segment of the hard-scrabble moto consumer population, f'r instance, that's been conditioned (let's be completely honest here, shall we, and just call it BRAINWASHED via PROPAGANDA AND GROUPTHINK) with great effectiveness into a permanently simplistic, thuddingly dense, perma-numb mentality that says, "MORE IS BETTER -- NO EXCEPTIONS". They will justify just about anything that's "different" and call it "better" as long as "its wot all the Boy Racers are doing" and as long as "MORE" is any part of it -- even if they're not racing, but merely riding on the road like Yours Truly and 99.999999....% of most of us on this Forum.

 

NOTE: Having spent considerable jack on a "racing component" with little justification aforethought seems to become a POWERFUL incentive AFTER THE FACT in justifying how much "better" just about any racing blingery is than an OE component -- with no quantifiable measurement wotsoever. To such as these, concepts of balance, proportion, discretion, and any sense of trade-off in value seem to be all but entirely lost. . .

 

How so many of the MORE IS BETTER crowd end up on Guzzi's is beyond Yours Truly, since a Guzzi would seem a very poor choice as a competitive performance machine to start with -- that is, unless "MORE WEIGHT" be considered "better". . .

 

But anyone who's managed to see through the "MORE IS BETTER" dogma and get well past it by personal experience and/or mastery of the obvious, well -- that person is obviously an idiot, doesn't know wot he's talking about, doesn't know how to ride -- and has "poor technic" [sic] to boot. . .

 

. . . and so it goes. . . such is the nature of any garden-variety popular delusion, and waddayagonna do?