Tech Session - brakes

[Motomonster]

Yeah, I read about a few of the 1098 guys locking their brakes. But I don't think a switch in master cylinders is enough to do this on our bikes. With new calipers maybe, but this is still a heavier bike, so even then it may not be as easy.

 

I've put about 100 miles on with the new RMC. Believe me, this thing improves the quality of the braking experience. How do you quantify that? I suppose measuring efficacy. I've practiced a few quick stops and have stopped in a shorter distance with greater control and not gotten anywhere near lock up. Sorry, I don't have precise measurements, but those who know me would attest that I'm pretty attentive to this sort of thing. Would I do so well in a panic situation? I dunno, but there is certainly room for error with just a RCM swap.

 

At best, I've gotten the V11 to perform more like a smaller bike. As far as I can tell, better components "even the playing" field a bit. That's all. But on a 550lb street bike, that's enough. My Guzzi now has 5hp and 6torque more than my Ducati (which is about 75lbs lighter and higher revving) and with the better brakes the two bikes perform comparably well.

 

As for the "racer boy" quips: puh-leez. A cheap Jap 4-banger will blow both bikes away.

[GuzziMoto]

Edit: What the hell is a technic? I sure don't want to have poor technics on my bike.

 

According to Dictionary.com it is the same as Technique, "technical skill; ability to apply procedures or methods so as to effect a desired result."

But I just did not feel it was needed to type an extra two letters. My apologies.

[GuzziMoto]

What does a pad compound that has too much initial bite (a bad thing on the track or on the street) have to do with improving your brakes?

It does have something to do with the fact that looking ones brakes is not a direct reflection of how good they are. Being able to lock tour front tire is not the point of brakes, stopping the bike is. And if you change a part on your bike so that it can stop in a shorter distance, how is that a bad thing. But then, arguing that point with someone who has resorted to the "If god meant for man to fly he would have given him wings" approach is pissing in the wind.

[gavo]

The thing about being able to lock the brake is it gives a reference point. maximum braking force is achived just prior to locking the front wheel, herin lies the technique if your brakes and technique can hold this point the only modification that will improved braking is more tyre grip

[Motomonster]

I think what RH is saying is that in his extensive 40+ years of riding he has yet to achieve this level of mastery and he's deeply concerned that others in his situation will be suckered into buying well-functioning equipment only to find themselves in the dangerous situation of having to stop quickly and efficiently.

[Guest ratchethack]

I think what RH is saying is that in his extensive 40+ years of riding he has yet to achieve this level of mastery and he's deeply concerned that others in his situation will be suckered into buying well-functioning equipment only to find themselves in the dangerous situation of having to stop quickly and efficiently.

Say Motomonster. What part of your OE brakes did you find to be anything less than "well-functioning equipment"?

 

Please advise.

 

Do you know any reputable Pro in "the trade" who has ever said the OE Brembo brakes on V11's are anything less than superbly performing brakes for ANY rider of ANY skill level on ANY road? Are you aware of any road test by any credible road tester who ever said the factory-issue V11 OE Brembo brakes weren't up to more than anything anyone could feed them on the road? If so, please specify. I've never heard of a single one, but that's just me.

 

I believe I know from experience at least enough about my brakes for my own good. I also know enough about them to recognize when they're in good working order and when they aren't, even if you and others around here aren't. I don't know about you or your Guzzi, MotoMonster, but my OE brakes are always well maintained, and I'd say they've functioned quite a bit better than "well" right from the factory, and for every mile of the 35K miles and 10 years since then.

 

Now if you don't know how to maintain your brakes properly, Motomonster, or you simply neglect your brakes, and have allowed yours to deteriorate to the point of needing to replace the brake master and/or calipers and/or rotors with alternatives because you've destroyed yours by abuse or neglect, by all means, bolt on anything you want in place of what was originally (and more than adequately) spec'd for road-going purposes on your Guzzi. It's a free world (or some of it still is for the most part, anyway).

 

You or anyone else expecting to achieve "better" than OE brake performance can spend $400, $4000, or just about anything you want for "racing" gear to replace the OE brakes, and the sky's pretty much the limit. It's been my observation that most of those who indulge in this kind of behavior for road-going purposes haven't got the faintest clue about what they're doing, and this thread has evidently flushed a couple of 'em out. Some will no doubt part company with the road not at a time and place of their own choosing as a direct result.

 

As always, the woods 'r full of 'em.

[GuzziMoto]

Motomonster, I would buy that, but the biggest flaw in that is that a high quality radial master cylinder is not going to really make the brakes more prone to locking up. What it does do is increase the feel at the lever (allowing you to hold it closer to the point of maximum braking) and decrease slightly (very slightly) the amount of effort required to achieve a given amount of braking. If you reflexively grab a big handful of brakes at a moment of panic your front wheel is likely to lock either way. That is not a proper reflection of the brakes but of rider error. It can happen to anybody. The more time you spend riding at the limits in a controlled enviroment the less likely that is to happen, though.

[Motomonster]

RH, I bought my bike in August of last year. It sounds like you have a lot of questions for the previous owner. I'll see if I can find his number for you.

 

In the meantime, as I have ridden a good many V11 Sports (for a good many years), I actually have a lot of experience with the OEM brakes, and as I take it you have no experience with the RCM, then I leave it up to your grand powers of observation as to which of us has the faintest clue.

[Motomonster]

Motomonster, I would buy that, but the biggest flaw in that is that a high quality radial master cylinder is not going to really make the brakes more prone to locking up. What it does do is increase the feel at the lever (allowing you to hold it closer to the point of maximum braking) and decrease slightly (very slightly) the amount of effort required to achieve a given amount of braking. If you reflexively grab a big handful of brakes at a moment of panic your front wheel is likely to lock either way. That is not a proper reflection of the brakes but of rider error. It can happen to anybody. The more time you spend riding at the limits in a controlled enviroment the less likely that is to happen, though.

 

I agree with you. Perhaps you have me confused with the hack.

[GuzziMoto]

RH, I bought my bike in August of last year. It sounds like you have a lot of questions for the previous owner. I'll see if I can find his number for you.

 

In the meantime, as I have ridden a good many V11 Sports (for a good many years), I actually have a lot of experience with the OEM brakes, and as I take it you have no experience with the RCM, then I leave it up to your grand powers of observation as to which of us has the faintest clue.

Well played my good man, well played.

No, I did not have you confused, I was just poking the bear. Bad habit of mine.

[Greg Field]

Just an increasingly rare observation that runs counter to the GROUPTHINK foolishness I bear witness to on a more or less continual basis. . .

 

No comments directed at anyone in particular.

 

At all times (OK, at least some times), I strive to be an equal opportunity offender.

 

I fully expect that a great wallopping consensus will swear on a stack o' multiple copies o' Guzziology that they can all out-brake better-balanced bikes of 200 lb. lower weight with a radial master vs. the "pedestrian grade" OE Brembo with their ~550-lb. V11's, and that less effort at the lever magically translates directly into shorter stopping distances on the track, without any negative trade-offs wotsoever for general purpose road riding.

 

Such beliefs, though as common as dirt, are false, I'm afraid, and can be, have been (and often are) dangerous.

 

The annual weekend meat wagon Siren Parades through the local mountain canyons are already fully underway this year here. . . it's shaping up into another record season. . .

 

Ratch: It's feel you get. I almost get a woody everytime I brake. The tips of my fingers can feel the rotor sliding through the pads. It's quite extraordinary.

[Motomonster]

Well, as fun as cock-ups are I'll say this: I made the same arguments to Greg when this topic first came up. And if my OEM equipment had been working properly I probably wouldn't have given it a second thought. So, I concede this point: an upgrade is by no means necessary, and not necessarily worth the money. I only did it under the "if you are falling, then dive" principle.

 

That being said, if you can find a decently priced 19X20 cylinder on ebay for cheap, get it (18 is pointless unless you are just a badass mofo). Or, if you have the money and it's no big deal to spend it, then it is also worth it. There is a real and significant improvement with RCM's. It's not bullshit, race-boy, poser self-delusion. You won't lock up your brakes and die instantly if you have any clue as to how to work them.

 

As I said above, improvements to these bikes only put them closer to the performance level of lighter machines in stock configuration. Is that worth it to you? You decide. I bought mine for so cheap, it was to me.

[Greg Field]

I have Aprilia customers who ride and brake hard enough that some pad formulations fade in hard street riding on long, tight mountain roads. This is in new RSVs with Brembo brakes that are three generations improved in calipers and two generations improved in master cylinders compared to what's on a stock V11. Just because most of us don't or won't or can't make use of the brake improvements of the last 10 years doesn't mean there are others who don't or won't or can't.

[Greg Field]

Oh, I like the 18 setting. I keep it there unless it's icy.

[Greg Field]

Do you know any reputable Pro in "the trade" who has ever said the OE Brembo brakes on V11's are anything less than superbly performing brakes for ANY rider of ANY skill level on ANY road? Are you aware of any road test by any credible road tester who ever said the factory-issue V11 OE Brembo brakes weren't up to more than anything anyone could feed them on the road? If so, please specify. I've never heard of a single one, but that's just me.

 

I'll try to dig out the quote I read from back in the day where the qualified tester commented that the drum brakes on the V7 Sport were as good as any rider on any road could ever need. For most people he was, and probably still is, right. I have owned a V7 Sport. I found that said tester's assessment was woefully wrong.

 

Re: V11 Sport brakes: I read yesterday a test of the Stelvio, which has V11 Sport (front) brakes, and the "in the trade" tester commented that those 10-years-past-prime brakes were so lame that he just relied on compression braking instead. It's in the Robb Report Motorcycling mag. By contrast, the same tester liked the brakes on the Benelli that he was riding back-to-back with the Stelvio. Can anyone guess what type of brakes the Benelli has?