Why does Roper plate enable 4.5 quarts of oil?

[Allan56]

Sloppage or windage, who cares what its called, it works a beauty.

 

Pete, sorry to hear about your family worries.

 

I've got my plate on my VII, but my son needs a sloppage plate too so please add another to the list

 

Allan

[gstallons]

Sloppage or windage, who cares what its called, it works a beauty.

 

Pete, sorry to hear about your family worries.

 

I've got my plate on my VII, but my son needs a sloppage plate too so please add another to the list

 

Allan

Your profile did not show where you live but Greg @ Moto-International stocks (Roper plates) them.

[Guest ratchethack]

My SEARCH turned up Pete saying the primary function is reducing shloppage and the secondary function reducing windage. I could not find where he said it is not a windage tray.

Well, Dave. Of course there are those who consider it too much of a personal challenge to find large, round fuzzy objects attached to their own backsides with both hands. Thanks for the resurrected photo of Dan The Former Guzzi Man’s Roper Plate installation at one of many memorable Guzzi Clinics we held in my home shop/driveway, and the under-sump perspective of my neighbor’s tree-tops. I note that those trees are considerably taller today.

 

This was all covered in spades many years ago, but despite all Pete's efforts at laboring so long and so hard and so many times, some continuing repetition would clearly seem to be called for here.

 

The fact that Pete has never referred to his plate as a WINDAGE PLATE might've been the first tip-off, I would think? Beyond that, his introduction and repeated use of the term, SLOPPAGE PLATE to draw the distinction would seem to've clinched it before we even get to his detailed descriptions of the differences.

 

I defer to The Maestro (see multiple Roper quotes below) but compared to Pete’s plate, a true WINDAGE PLATE is a highly complex, highly engineered piece (no slight of any kind intended!) There are companies that specialize in custom engineered WINDAGE PLATES, selling racing versions for my car (for example) that are custom-fitted to racing cranks, and go for thousands of $ USD (see link below). Any confusion over equivalence between these and Pete’s plate after all his efforts to explain the difference here by anyone interested enough to consider the effort of installing one would seem to be due to simple ignorance, or otherwise require extraterrestrial stretches of other-worldly perception, alien twists of illogic, some form of extended denial psychosis, and/or truly formidable versions of extreme speculation behavior -- and we all know there's no shortage o' all the above hereabouts. . .

 

To my knowledge, you won’t find Pete trotting out some kind of a complete, 100% scorched-earth statement of utter impossibility over the idea of his plate’s secondary effects on windage control. In fact, he repeatedly points out that there may be some potential UNINTENTIONAL windage control benefits of his plate so slight as to be on the very threshold of actual human perception, as I have also pointed out from my own experience in multiple posts, where I noted the possibility of an ever-so-slight quickness in spin-up over 5K RPM immediately after installing the plate.

 

What you WILL find, Dave, if you actually do a search here on “windage” AND “Pete Roper”, since you evidently somehow missed each point below first-hand as a participant in I believe every single thread quoted below, as well as missing the following in the search that you noted above, is Pete repeatedly MAKING A DISTINCTION between his plate and a true WINDAGE PLATE over a period of several years, as I noted previously in this thread:

 

'pete roper' date='Apr 14 2008, 11:29 PM

If you want a *real* windage tray with weirs, dams and scrapers one could be designed without too many problems but this would defeat one of the major objectives of the entire project which was to produce something that;

 

a.) Worked.

 

b.) Was unobtrusive.

 

c.) Was easy to install.

 

and...........

 

d.) Was CHEAP!!!!

 

'pete roper' date='Feb 4 2008, 06:32 AM

As I've said before, I designed the plate to combat a SPECIFIC problem. any other benefits are purely luck and circumstance.

 

'pete roper' date='Aug 28 2007, 08:39 AM

While the primary purpose is to prevent rearward surge and therefore exposure of the oil pick-up a secondary benefit will be a reduction in windage. Whether this acyually makes for any performance improvement I'm entirely ambivalent about as it wasn't mmy aim when building and designing the plates.

 

'pete roper' date='Nov 15 2006, 08:37 AM

...to the best of my knowledge I'm the only person who has designed and manufactured a 'Sloppage Sheet' for the 'Broad Sump' models and the windage benefits ARE secondary to the original intention.

 

'pete roper' date='Jul 9 2006, 07:01 PM

...there obviously *is* a problem. Yes you could go all out and build a really ellaborate *real* windage tray with scrapers, screens and the whole banana. It would be hideously expensive and the gains you'd make would, IMHO at least, not be worth the time or expense. What is really needed is something that will prevent the oil migrating away from the pick-up under hard acceleration, the forward position of the pick up means that exposure under heavy braking is less likely as Greg has observed. Any sort of baffle plate should, for a road bike at least, be fairly robust.

 

'pete roper' date='Apr 8 2006, 08:08 AM

...If you want difficult and expensive build a real windage plate with scrapers and re-locate the pick-up, (Yeah, like right, we'll do that this evenin' with a six pack, some bailing wire a bit of mild steel off-cut and a hacksaw and bastard cut file, Not! )

 

'pete roper' date='Mar 21 2006, 05:58 AM

A real *race* type windage plate would have scrapers to remove oil from the crank webs and a lattice of screens to collect particulate oil matter not only to reduce oil expulsion but to lower the resistance to the crank's spinning. Now while if you were going for a world speed record that might be worthwhile on a road bike it is, in my opinion, a pointless wank.

 

'pete roper' date='Nov 10 2004, 10:03 PM

...ideally a propperly designed plate to maximise the efficiency should have web scrapers and screens but this would require a lot of farting about.

 

'pete roper' date='Aug 12 2004, 05:21 AM

...windage trays may have scrapers that actually drag oil off the crank webs as they spin, usually in the form of knife-edge weirs that run within a few thou of the webs, and fine mesh screens within the case to strain out oil droplets and encourage them to return quickly to the sump. These will be in addition to the plate itself that sits just above the level of the oil.

For an alternate professional explanation of what a WINDAGE PLATE is and how it functions that agrees with Pete's descriptions 100% (by my read), with photo's and illustrations, the followng page at the site of an engineering company that designs and builds them has published professional DEFINITIONS for OIL BAFFLES, WINDAGE TRAYS, AND CRANK SCRAPERS at the bottom of this page:

 

http://www.crank-scrapers.com/What%20is%20...nk-scraper.html

 

Roper plate, courtesy Greg Field

(In stock NOW at Moto International.

Hurry while quantities last!)

 

Typical windage plate

 

Sure hope this helps. . .[sigh]. . .

 

____________________

 

SPECIAL NOTE: Pete, my thoughts and prayers go out to you, to Val, and to the families of all close to her. Of course this is a stressful thing like no other. My own extended family went through this with the passing of a favorite Uncle over the Christmas holiday.

[tricatcent]

I have just bought a 2004 Lemans. I have been enjoying reading this forum since I have only been able to ride 200 Km so far becasue of snow.

 

What I need to know that I haven't been able to find out from all of this information about the Roper plate is whether or not I need one. Do the 2004 bikes require this or did Moto Guzzi change something in the engine so that this mod would be of no benifit?

 

I also have a 1980 MKII Lemans. I am selling my Ducati Darmah 900ss, to make room in the Garage for the New Lemans. Mostly I have always ridden old bikes. This is my first modern bike. The Moto Guzzi is still retro enought to appeal to me. I chose it over a Ducati ST which would have been my other choice becasue of the ruggedness and simplicity, of the Guzzi. Also after owning the 850 Lemans for a while I realize that light weight is over rated. The weight gives you stability and momentum, especially when it is low down like on a Guzzi.

 

My wife calls this new bike the Porco Rosso.

 

Nigel

[Guest ratchethack]

Nige, congrat's on your purchase of what I consider a lovely "Modern Classic". I'm pretty familiar with your exact model and year LeMans, having done and/or assisted on most of the maintenance of one for many years. Only you can determine if "need" applies to you and your riding habits.

 

The "need" for the Roper plate is the same for all "broad sump" Guzzi motors, all V11s included. The photo in post #14 of this thread is a Roper Plate being installed in a 2004 LeMans. The rider of the LM in this photo had been routinely doing hard launches and wheelies over an extended period of time without noticing the low oil pressure light coming on at nearly every hard launch. I had repeatedly pointed this out to him (having observed his light coming on from behind!) and explained the danger for probably a year before he finally came around to the idea that he "needed" a Roper Plate, or he'd more'n likely be looking for a new motor sooner rather than later. . . We installed ours on the same day over 3 years ago.

 

If you love this bike and plan on keeping it for a long time (as does Yours Truly), and you have any tendency toward hard launches, as discussed at length on this Forum for many years, IMHO it's probably the least expensive long-term insurance against torched crank journals that exists. Scratch that -- Come to think of it, other than maintaining your bike with adequate oil levels and doing regular oil and filter changes, it's the ONLY insurance you can get specifically against this potential calamity -- at any price.

 

But as always, that's just me, and o' course, depending on how you ride, YMMV.

[Greg Field]

Thanks to all that PM'd me about Val. It's one of those things, when the last parent goes you know for sure, "We're next!" Some of the PNW gang met Val when we came over 'en-famile' about five years ago and know she was/is a game old bird, but her race is run and we're just waiting.............

 

Pete

 

Yes, an absolutely fabulous lady. This is a real tragedy, but she's lucky enough to have Pete and Jude by her side.

[Molly]

Since I installed mine, I've consistently run the oil level ~2-3 cm above the "high" mark on the dipstick (just under the level of the plate) with ZERO evidence of oil loss through excess windage via the breather/condenser/airbox.

 

Thanks for that Rathethack. One last question if I may: When you run the oil level 2-3cm over the 'high' mark, do you check this with the bike upright? It's a basic question I know but I didn't search for the generic answer as I was interested in what you did.

 

Thanks.

 

Molly.

[pete roper]

Thanks for that Rathethack. One last question if I may: When you run the oil level 2-3cm over the 'high' mark, do you check this with the bike upright? It's a basic question I know but I didn't search for the generic answer as I was interested in what you did.

 

Thanks.

 

Molly.

 

It's very eay. When installing then plate mark the stick just under the plate. Then when its all back together fill it until its full to the new mark, (And 100-200ml either way are really irrelevant but I'd suggest less rather than more.). Once you have it about right park the bike on its sidestand overnight, then withdraw the stick and mark where the oil is. That's the mark on the sidestand. Done.

 

Pete

[Guest ratchethack]

Wot Pete said. For a "visual" on the orientation of the dipstick marks relative to where the Roper plate is installed, here's a photo I took with a straightedge held across the bottom of the block with a ruler measuring vertically against the marks on the dipstick (dipstick fully seated, sump spacer removed).

 

NOTE: My dipstick is an aftermarket billet item that I doctored-up by flat-siding and adding a row of dimples with a Dremel tool for easier reading. The high and low marks are identical with those on the OE Guzzi dipstick.

 

 

The high mark on the dipstick is 2 cm below the block.

The low mark is 4 cm below the block.

 

NOTE: The total thickness of the plate and both gaskets as installed (cinched up, gaskets compressed) is ~3mm.

 

Molly, there seem to be many variations on checking oil level, some as valid as the next, some. . . err, maybe not so much. I've always checked mine cold, with the bike level and the dipstick fully seated, per the Guzzi manual. If you prefer, it's easy enough to translate this to a valid read on the side stand as Pete noted.

[Molly]

Thank you both for that.

 

Much appreciated.

[pete roper]

Incidentally, if anybody hears of a V11 on the west coast of the USA with a torched motor that wants to sell it I'm in the market. It'll have to be in good condition otherwise but a torched donk, even a Scura with an exploded flywheel, would be OK.

 

Pete

[savagehenry]

Thanks for that Rathethack. One last question if I may: When you run the oil level 2-3cm over the 'high' mark, do you check this with the bike upright? It's a basic question I know but I didn't search for the generic answer as I was interested in what you did.

 

Thanks.

 

Molly.

Also, you can take a flashlight and look right down the hole where the dipstick goes and see the plate, and the oil itself. Now fill it till you are almost to plate level (with bike on sidestand) and insert stick without screwing it in and mark that on yer stick. Now you can check it fast and easy forever. Really, if you now stand the bike up to level and check your newest mark, you will see there will be almost no difference between stood up or on the kickstand.

I also put on a sloppage plate last year, after I saw my oil light blip at alot of my usual spirited take-offs. It is as easy as hell to do, I have not seen ONE oil light since (even when somehow the front wheel gets this weird "floaty" feel for a few seconds...) and I too swear that my motor seems to wick up just a little bit quicker than before the "the fancy shim" was put in. You should just do it, it does work, period. Later, S.H.

[tmcafe]

Totally dumb question, but why is it better to go up to 4.5 qts instead of just 4qts? In fact I see that Pete feels it's better to err on the "less oil" side rather than on the "more" if the oil level under the plate is to vary. That makes sense given the known problems of too much oil.

 

Got the plate a while ago but never got around to install it. Will do it as soon as I get a chance (in the meantime I'm getting the parts to make the bike roadworthy again--I did get a check from the driver's insurance). And weather sucks now...

[Guest ratchethack]

Not a dumb Q, TMC. As Pete has explained previously, the "optimum" oil level is a balance of many considerations.

 

Here's my take, FWIW. Generally, you want more oil volume as opposed to less in any wet sump motor for greater heat transfer capacity, and to ensure coverage of the oil pickup. But with any wet-sump design, too much oil volume in the sump decreases the compressible air volume above it in the crankcase. In the case of the Guzzi Big Twin, this can create an excessive high-pressure wave as both pistons are on the downstroke at the same time (though 90 degrees of crank rotation apart -- or better said, staggered by exactly one half stroke), which pressurizes the crankcase to an unwanted degree when there's less crankcase air volume to compress, putting more stresses on the crank seals and the oil condenser. This can make both the seals and the condenser pass oil prematurely. With the Roper plate in there, any excess oil volume beyond that which fills the entire under-plate volume begins to collect on top of the plate. This oil will tend to create an unwanted excess windage condition due to the fact that all above-plate oil is more directly exposed to the vortex of oil around the crank, and get sucked into it, increasing the oil mass around the crank, again overwhelming the oil condenser, and puking oil into the airbox at high RPM.

 

So to my way of thinking, with the plate in there, going with more oil volume than stock is an advantage, because with the plate keeping the bulk of the oil away from the vortex around the crank, that oil doesn't run up against the OE limitations of too much oil due to windage, and it still provides the advantages of increased cooling capacity, not to mention the advantage of not having to check the level as often between changes. As I've posted before, with the plate in there, I believe the range of acceptable oil volume (and of course the level on the dipstick) gets extended in both directions. But always better more (up to just under the plate) than less.

 

But o' course, that's just me, and I'm merely a shade-tree Road Geez.

 

How'd I do, Pete?

[pete roper]

There is also the fact that is there is an air gap below the plate the oil will still tend to 'Slop' rearwards under acceleration as the air will squeeze up through the assorted drain holes quicker than oil will, even when the oil is hot and thin. Because there are holes in the plate the oil will, eventually, still migrate rearwards and if the acceleration continued for long and hard enough or you were on a steep enough incline for longe enough you could, theoretically, still get pick up exposure but it is my belief that for all practical, real-world purposes this is very, very unlikely ever to occur.

 

Pete