Why does Roper plate enable 4.5 quarts of oil?

[tmcafe]

Thanks Ratch and Pete for re-explaining clear enough even for me not only why the oil level can be raised safely under the plate, but also why it's better to raise it (by adding about .5 qts to the 4 qts--which is already more than the barely sufficient factory spec).

 

So when Pete says

mark the stick just under the plate. Then when its all back together fill it until its full to the new mark, (And 100-200ml either way are really irrelevant but I'd suggest less rather than more.)

this means adding a little less than the extra .5 qt? (as in "fill with 4.5 qts plus/minus 100-200 ml)? (my understanding is that less extra oil will create less extra crankase pressure while still having the oil level raised enough for safety). Sorry if I sound like a nitpicking nerd, just wanting to understand

[Guest ratchethack]

So when Pete says this means adding a little less than the extra .5 qt? (as in "fill with 4.5 qts plus/minus 100-200 ml)? (my understanding is that less extra oil will create less extra crankase pressure while still having the oil level raised enough for safety). Sorry if I sound like a nitpicking nerd, just wanting to understand

TMC, please forgive my frustration here, my friend. No offense intended, and evidently you're in good company on this, so this isn't directed at you exclusively! But why in the hallowed names of Carlo Guzzi, Omobono Tenni, and Lino Tonti would you be obsessing over measuring oil volume differences as entirely insgnificant to your motor as +/- 100-200 ml?? The need for precision with oil volume in a wonky old ditch pump motor ain't exactly the same as it might be if we were doing rocket science here. Pete was using the reference to this approximate volume to make a point. This doesn't mean there's some kind of a requirement to measure your oil with a collection of graduated cylinders and micro-pipettes from the chemistry lab!!

 

I reckon the proverbial "ballpark" might be too tight a spec here. With Roper plate installed, and the oil pickup now substantially protected from danger of exposure, if you keep your oil level anywhere within the outskirts of the entire Greater Metropolitan Area of a couple cm above the OE "high" mark as measured on the dipstick (without going over the plate of course!), your Guzzi will be happy as a clam.

 

Matter of fact, as I b'lieve Pete has merely hinted with his "less rather than more" comment in the context of his explanation above, with the plate in there (Part II) I reckon you could be more than a full quart below this with absolutely ZERO potential downside risk to your motor under any conditions wotsoever -- but o' course, that's just me, based on 3 years without the plate followed by over 3 years with the thing under just about every road condition imaginable (and some not quite so imaginable).

 

Seems to me the reason our motors are equipped with a dipstick is so that (in addition to providing ease of monitoring oil consumption) we don't have to bother with the messy, silly drill of measuring engine oil at every change, not to mention guessing about the considerable potential for making a significant mistake performing some relatively tedious measurement procedure!!

 

As I noted back in post #8 of this thread:

Now this is just me, but I never bother measuring the exact volume of oil coming out at an oil change, nor do I measure the exact volume going in. Other than making sure I always have more than enough for the job on hand before I drain the old, I can't conceive of why the exact volumes involved would ever be important. Since the volume that comes out is never all, tends to vary from one change to the next, and is always dependent on variables too numerous to mention, let alone be within anyone's control, I simply drop the old, put enough new in to bring it up to the level I want after running up to operating temp to "burp" the oil cooler by cycling the thermo-valve at least once, and back down to ambient again, and Bob's y'er Uncle.

But then, if you insist on "minding y'er P's and Q's" down to the fluid dram, I'll wager there's an anal-retentive bartender at a pub somewhere close to you who's even more of a crotchety ol' b@$t@rd than the likes o' either Pete OR Yours Truly who'd be more'n pleased to oblige, and save you the needless aggravation. . .

 

I s'pose you want it in a clean mug, too?!

[tmcafe]

Aye aye, Sir Cdr Ratchethack!

Will refill and check oil per Guzzi ditch pump standards!

PS I appreciate the reply--but still want a clean mug

[dlaing]

Well, Dave. Of course there are those who consider it too much of a personal challenge to find large, round fuzzy objects attached to their own backsides with both hands. Thanks for the resurrected photo of Dan The Former Guzzi Man’s Roper Plate installation at one of many memorable Guzzi Clinics we held in my home shop/driveway, and the under-sump perspective of my neighbor’s tree-tops. I note that those trees are considerably taller today.

 

This was all covered in spades many years ago, but despite all Pete's efforts at laboring so long and so hard and so many times, some continuing repetition would clearly seem to be called for here.

 

The fact that Pete has never referred to his plate as a WINDAGE PLATE might've been the first tip-off, I would think? Beyond that, his introduction and repeated use of the term, SLOPPAGE PLATE to draw the distinction would seem to've clinched it before we even get to his detailed descriptions of the differences.

 

I defer to The Maestro (see multiple Roper quotes below) but compared to Pete’s plate, a true WINDAGE PLATE is a highly complex, highly engineered piece (no slight of any kind intended!) There are companies that specialize in custom engineered WINDAGE PLATES, selling racing versions for my car (for example) that are custom-fitted to racing cranks, and go for thousands of $ USD (see link below). Any confusion over equivalence between these and Pete’s plate after all his efforts to explain the difference here would seem to be due to simple ignorance, or otherwise require extraterrestrial stretches of other-worldly perception, alien twists of illogic, some form of extended denial psychosis, and/or truly formidable versions of extreme speculation behavior -- and we all know there's no shortage o' all the above hereabouts. . .

 

To my knowledge, you won’t find Pete trotting out some kind of a complete, 100% scorched-earth statement of utter impossibility over the idea of his plate’s secondary effects on windage control. In fact, he repeatedly points out that there may be some potential UNINTENTIONAL windage control benefits of his plate so slight as to be on the very threshold of actual human perception, as I have also pointed out from my own experience in multiple posts, where I noted the possibility of an ever-so-slight quickness in spin-up over 5K RPM immediately after installing the plate.

 

What you WILL find, Dave, if you actually do a search here on “windage” AND “Pete Roper”, since you evidently somehow missed each point below first-hand as a participant in I believe every single thread quoted below, as well as missing the following in the search that you noted above, is Pete repeatedly MAKING A DISTINCTION between his plate and a true WINDAGE PLATE over a period of several years, as I noted previously in this thread:

 

 

For an alternate professional explanation of what a WINDAGE PLATE is and how it functions that agrees with Pete's descriptions 100% (by my read), with photo's and illustrations, the followng page at the site of an engineering company that designs and builds them has published professional DEFINITIONS for OIL BAFFLES, WINDAGE TRAYS, AND CRANK SCRAPERS at the bottom of this page:

 

http://www.crank-scrapers.com/What%20is%20...nk-scraper.html

 

Roper plate, courtesy Greg Field

(In stock NOW at Moto International.

Hurry while quantities last!)

 

Typical windage plate

 

Sure hope this helps. . .[sigh]. . .

 

____________________

 

SPECIAL NOTE: Pete, my thoughts and prayers go out to you, to Val, and to the families of all close to her. Of course this is a stressful thing like no other. My own extended family went through this with the passing of a favorite Uncle over the Christmas holiday.

Good to see you agree that it is also a windage plate, and also a pleasure to see you saying I missed what I did not. Assuming are we?

[dlaing]

To my knowledge, you won’t find Pete trotting out some kind of a complete, 100% scorched-earth statement of utter impossibility over the idea of his plate’s secondary effects on windage control. In fact, he repeatedly points out that there may be some potential UNINTENTIONAL windage control benefits of his plate so slight as to be on the very threshold of actual human perception, as I have also pointed out from my own experience in multiple posts, where I noted the possibility of an ever-so-slight quickness in spin-up over 5K RPM immediately after installing the plate. \

I disagree as my bike definitely benefits from NOT so slight windage control as observed by the oil consumption being greatly reduced, especially when compared at higher oil levels.

And I recall Pete posted that oil consumption reduction WOULD be a benefit from the reduced windage.

As for the power benefits, I would agree that they would be at, but more likely BELOW the threshold of human perception.

[pete roper]

Nice to see you boys are still getting along so well.

 

How about f#cking off the semantics and the the whole stupid point scoring BS. We know you dislike each other intensely. Do we need to do the whole catfight thing on every subject.

 

For what its worth I've met Dave and he's a good bloke. I don't think I've met Ratch but no doubt he's a good bloke too, but for heavens sakes if you want to brutalise each other piss off and do it in a car park somewhere 'cos the bickering is as tedious as pulling pubes out of yer teeth.

 

Pete

[dlaing]

Nice to see you boys are still getting along so well.

 

How about f#cking off the semantics and the the whole stupid point scoring BS. We know you dislike each other intensely. Do we need to do the whole catfight thing on every subject.

 

For what its worth I've met Dave and he's a good bloke. I don't think I've met Ratch but no doubt he's a good bloke too, but for heavens sakes if you want to brutalise each other piss off and do it in a car park somewhere 'cos the bickering is as tedious as pulling pubes out of yer teeth.

 

Pete

OK it is not a windage plate and I am just hallucinating.

I'll go piss off now.

[Admin Jaap]

Nice to see you boys are still getting along so well.

 

How about f#cking off the semantics and the the whole stupid point scoring BS. We know you dislike each other intensely. Do we need to do the whole catfight thing on every subject.

 

For what its worth I've met Dave and he's a good bloke. I don't think I've met Ratch but no doubt he's a good bloke too, but for heavens sakes if you want to brutalise each other piss off and do it in a car park somewhere 'cos the bickering is as tedious as pulling pubes out of yer teeth.

 

Pete

Thanks for your excellent moderation skills

[Guest ratchethack]

How about f#cking off the semantics and the the whole stupid point scoring BS. We know you dislike each other intensely. Do we need to do the whole catfight thing on every subject.

Uh-oh.

. . .I'll wager there's an anal-retentive bartender at a pub somewhere . . . who's even more of a crotchety ol' b@$t@rd than the likes o' either Pete OR Yours Truly who'd be more'n pleased to oblige, and save you the needless aggravation. . .

I s'pose you want it in a clean mug, too?!

But then again, maybe we've got the world's most crochety curmudgeons right here, after all. . .

 

Pete, it's Winter here. Though it's pretty nice where I am today, it was too cold for a ride I wanted to do this morning, and much of North America is snowbound and/or lots colder than it is here. I'm sorry for your present situation, and I sympathize to the point of empathy out of my own recent experience, as noted previously. But seems to me I've seen you weather some Winter fiascos on other Forums that make this stuff here look like child's play.

 

Dave and I have a unique relationship, alright. Fact is, we actually don’t dislike each other intensely, despite the “banter”. As outright painful and offensive as my posts seem to be to many, I insist on truth that can at least be backed up by something resembling fact here, and I tend to call everyone on untruthful posts, just as I expect to be called on any untruths I post by anyone and everyone else -- for which I have always expressed my sincere thanks for legitimate correction -- when based on credible facts. Sorry for you and anyone else who finds this tedious, but I reckon some kind of truth standards are of great value on a Technical Forum, and without any a-tall, unless I’m completely daft (at least a reasonable assumption unless and/or until demonstrated otherwise, as I’m often reminded ), I figure the value and purpose of the Forum is compromised in pretty much direct proportion to the degree that bad information goes unchallenged, and therefore, gets perpetuated.

 

Dave's misinterpretation of, and disrespect for the fundamental concept of truth is 180 degrees out-of-phase with my concept of truth on The Great Crankshaft of Life. I note that he tends to twist, fudge, doctor up, distort, stretch well past the breaking point, and flat-out dream up "his own truth" based on “the way he sees things” (his words exactly, IIRC) on a regular basis -- despite the usual great preponderance of credible facts to the contrary. On a Technical Forum, I figure this can (and does) present real problems for readers who for whatever reason don't take the time to exercise discretion by picking up on the nature of the source of what they’re reading. Somehow, I seem to've elected myself as the one who calls Dave on his whoppers. I don't see anyone else paying enough attention to even notice, let alone give a damn.

 

I reckon Dave doesn't mind too much, or he'd back off the continuous great profusion of baseless speculation and outright mendacity, which as far as I can tell is for the most part deeply ingrained habit and conditioned reflex, without anything resembling a basis in principles involved. In fact, having studied this phenomenon with sincere interest in the greater context of what I consider an acceleration in my lifetime of the cultural abandonment of the concept of truth as a general trend, via manipulative propaganda in the media, I b'lieve Dave actually enjoys being called on it, due to the fact that next no one else otherwise seems to pay much attention. Ergo, on a philosophical plane, I reckon we have the debasement of culture in microcosm right here under our noses, so to speak. Deep down, I honestly believe that by past experience, though he’d no doubt be loath to admit it, Dave more’n likely knows he needs some kind of a tether to keep himself from drifting all the way out into the eternity of the trackless void. . .

 

I fully understand that nobody elected me Arbiter of Truth here, and I know my posts can be intensely irritating to many hereabouts. Many would much sooner chew glass with a garnish of razor blades than subject themselves. And vice-versa, I might add. Such is life, and so it is on every Forum I know of. As far as I tan tell, no one's here by invitation only, and no one forces anyone else to read anything here. But to a large degree, I figure simply pointing out the obvious that gets ignored so often covers lots of useful ground in helping others discover what’s important to them on their own, and I don’t much care who disagrees with my take. But that’s just me.

 

Now I may be disappointed that Dave hasn't ever managed to learn much of anything about the nature of fact, evidence, proof, or logic, and I most certainly find his hopelessly primitive, horrific ignorance and resulting confusion over the self-evident principle of objective truth to be genuinely disturbing, since Dave and myself both live in what is still considered a First World nation, the aforementioned ignorance and confusion being for the most part the exclusive province of Third World Philistines in the 21st Century. At least to me, it’s truly a shame, because I reckon there've been lots of opportunities for learning the self-evident, on top of all the tech stuff here. Particularly on a Technical Forum, as they say -- knowledge is power, but nearly useless without wisdom at least at an adult level.

 

But I figure Dave’s not here to meet my expectations, nor am I here to meet his, yours, or anyone else’s. Nor has Dave slowed down his Speculation Train one iota as a result of the countless times I've called him on his folly and falsehoods, nor has he curbed the dreamy outright fabrications that he regularly presents here as if they were hard realities, and I’ve learned not to expect he'll ever outgrow his chronic childlike naïveté. But I don't find it the least bit "cute" on a Technical Forum, where I figure we ought to discuss things as adults, as a bare minimum prerequisite. IMHO, Dave's naïveté and perpetual mendacity here are at least potentially a danger to others. So until I get kicked off, or put on Forum trial (as has happened once already) I remain at the service of the Forum, whenever I happen to notice, or simply can't take it anymore, to red flag the unwary and unknowing against jumping on board Dave’s ol’ Speculation Train with him. You see, I've noticed it has a pretty good probability of leaving the track any time after leaving the station, careening over yet another familiar precipice, taking him and whoever got on board with him. . .

 

Case in point, here's a little item that I reckon stands a pretty good chance of misleading someone here.

I disagree as my bike definitely benefits from NOT so slight windage control as observed by the oil consumption being greatly reduced, especially when compared at higher oil levels.

And I recall Pete posted that oil consumption reduction WOULD be a benefit from the reduced windage.

As for the power benefits, I would agree that they would be at, but more likely BELOW the threshold of human perception.

To the "uninitiated" and/or anyone not really paying attention, it would naturally appear that Dave is posting from his experience with YOUR plate, Pete. But unless you or someone else sold him one unbeknownst to me, (or I reckon by now we’d all know about it) it might at least be significant to others, if not to yourself, to note that Dave has cleverly and very deliberately omitted one critical fact from his post here, for the sole purpose of expediency in an attempt to dig himself out of yet another gaping hole in yet another one of his ridiculously futile, childlike arguments, as I continue to find so typical: He doesn't own one of your plates. He's installed something of his own creation, which (if memory serves, and I b’lieve it does) is not anywhere close to a copy, and quite a considerable departure from your design. Trivial? Superficially, perhaps. But in the most important sense to those with sincere interest here, I think not. This deliberate little lack-of-full-disclosure "switcheroo" is way past the first time he's done this and similar on this Forum. It's a well-worn pattern hereabouts. This is evidently what passes for truth and honesty in Dave's book. In my book, deliberate misrepresentation is lying. Mendacity, by any other name. Yeah, I'm gonna continue to call him on it. No, I don't expect it'll change Dave's behavior wotsoever, but I reckon someone truly interested in the topic at hand might learn something of value by exposure of the habits and techniques of the deviously deceitful to the light of day, and hopefully be spared a costly mistake in the bargain.

 

 

Now as usual, this is just me. But for the benefit of those reading this thread with sincere interest in purchasing and installing your plate, Pete, I reckon any critique of any kind about what your plate is and what it isn't, or what it does or doesn't do, from someone without any experience with it wotsoever, masquerading as some kind of an authority on your plate, might be a little suspicious -- or at least it would appear so with the objective truth backed by all the significant facts on the table. Particularly since Dave has clearly attempted to falsely shore up his own idiotic, but firmly stated contrary position to yourself and other credible Pro's, whom I've cited in support of your expertise (not that you need either my endorsement or theirs) -- but you're welcome, anyway.

 

So by the grace of our most fair and objective moderator, whose rules & guidelines I have always respected and have at least made an honest attempt to follow (er, for the most part) -- by all means, let Dave keep servin’ ‘em up, and I’ll keep shootin’ ‘em down!

 

Somebody's just gotta do it.

 

Your Humble Public Servant,

 

Cdr. Hatchracket, Curmudgeon, Esq.

[dlaing]

Truth is subjective and faulty as mine MAY be, it's more more close to the truth in the reality we all share than ratchet's truth.

I neglected to mention my sheet to avoid complicating what should be a simple matter, that Pete did not say his is not a windage tray, he said it is not a REAL windage tray. By your saying that Pete said it is not a windage tray Ratchet is inaccurately representing his words and misleading the reader into believing it serves no windage functionallity, when in fact it does. Pete doesn't care about this descrepency of words but I do.

[Allan56]

Your profile did not show where you live but Greg @ Moto-International stocks (Roper plates) them.

 

Sorry about that.

I'm in Bundaberg Austalia, more or less just up the road from Pete Roper

[dlaing]

'cos the bickering is as tedious as pulling pubes out of yer teeth.

Finding flossing so tedious, it is no wonder you Brits have such bad teeth!

[gavo]

Finding flossing so tedious, it is no wonder you Brits have such bad teeth!

 

 

I believe if pete lives in NSW Australia he would be an aussie not a Brit who would be a resident of the United kingdom

[Guzzi2Go]

I believe if pete lives in NSW Australia he would be an aussie not a Brit who would be a resident of the United kingdom

I think that being a Brit and living in Oz makes him a Pom.

[dlaing]

I think that being a Brit and living in Oz makes him a Pom.

I stand corrected. But that begs the question, do POMs floss as infrequently as Brits?