The 8V cam recall: Pt 1

[pete roper]

In that case, what are the things to look out for? (Pete?)

I'll get a look tomorrow.

– wide tappet gap

– swarf?

– loose feel / tight feel to rotation?

 

Whatever: if there is damage, or if it is on its way out, will it be obvious to see

and if there is nothing obvious to the eye then I can get back on and ride again?

It can be hard to judge what is normal noise and what is danger noise, when there is no direct point of reference.

 

Wide and inconsistent tappet gaps. The gaps should be 4 thou inlet, 6 thou exhaust. Mine were very wide ex-factory and then closed up radically in the first 5,000Km, (During that period I checked them three or four times.) after which they settled down and when I checked 'em again at 10 and 15K they has closed up just a smidge, less than 1/2 a thou. It is very unlikely that all four cam lobes and tappets are going to let go simultaneously. Nor is it likely that the wear on all the components will be identical, for that reason what you are likely to find is one or two gaps that will be close to right and one or more that will be MUCH larger. Once wear starts it will be rapid, those cams are spinning pretty fast, stuff'll wear out quick if it ain't right, like in minutes not hours.

 

Can you see swarf or particulate matter? I don't know. I have yet to see one that is in the process of failing. Mario who has seen a couple now says that once you get the scaffold that retains the cam off it is obvious as the whole area will be full of shrapnel. The cams themselves and the bath they run in are pretty effectively hidden by the scaffolding though. If the piston is at TDC compresion though it is possible to see the tops of the tappets where they protrude, (I think, this is from memory.) and obviously if there is a visible discrepancy between how much they protrude it will indicate that the foot of the tappet is wearing away.

 

Rotating the motor by hand won't probably tell you much. It will always feel as though there are tight spots as compressing the valve springs takes effort. If the cam bearings are going to seize up, (And I've seen pics where one was ridden to death and this happened!) the cam will lock, the camchain sprocket will shatter and the engine will stop VERY, VERY quickly with bent valves and all sorts. This is one of the main reasons I strongly advise people to stop riding IMMEDIATELY if they suspect they have a problem.

 

Noise is simply the indicator, checking the gaps with a guage is the diagnostic method, (If needed. If you can grab the rocker and waggle it about it is obviously 'Donald Ducked'.). This is one of those occasions where you diagnose by touch rather than eyesight.

 

Pete

[belfastguzzi]

As I said previously, the top end suddenly seemed very noisy – too noisy.

Now I've looked

and: it's wrecked. I didn't have to look too hard: as soon as the cover was off and with the engine just in whatever position it happened to be sitting, I could see that the gap is

sizable.

In fact. a whole set of feeler leaves fit in with room to spare!

 

So I'm pretty fed-up, with three Guzzis off the road because they need work: and this is a new and expensive one.

 

Pete, a couple of questions, if I may.

This time I just could not get the right side plug cap off. How do you do it?

This is a terrible design with, as I've said before, little hope of getting them off at the roadside (without damage) if you ever need to. The rubber is split now on mine. Reading the service info in the Guzzi tech sheet, I get the impression that MG expect plug caps now to be 'use once' items! They should be replaced every time that they are removed. I say that because the service doc says to take off the plug caps using a special tool and then immediately fit new caps! It reads like an admission that this 'system' precludes re-use because of likely damage to the plug cap on removal. How daft.

As I couldn't get the right side plug cap off, I didn't bother going through the whole procedure of turning the motor to find tdc and measure all the gaps in the correct position. It is enough to see that the left side is clearly knackered.

 

What do you make of this? (Third pic down.) The black guide that the rod moves in is loose and moves up and down with the rod. Do you think that is normal, or should it remain tightly fixed in place? It's not on the recall replacement parts list. The rods aren't on the list either, so MG expect all the problem to be with the camshafts only?

 

** EDIT It seems that the black sleeve is what MG calls the 'bowl' – so it is on the replacement list. The rods aren't to be replaced though. *Unless they come as a set and the BOWL is the combination of sleeve and rod?

 

 

The guide sleeves (Edit: BOWLS) that move up and down. You can see that one (on left) slightly protrudes more than the other here.

 

The terrible plug cap system. The long black plug cap lodges tightly in the tube down to the plug. There is nothing solid to grasp to break the seal and pull the cap out, so the rubber gets torn. This then can lead to electricity taking a short-cut where the insulation is torn. People have previously reported that problem.

 

This one won't budge, without the rubber tearing to bits.

[belfastguzzi]

Ha! To cap it all, Guzzi's Customer Service website isn't working either.

And not only that. In their model drop-down menu that the customer has to select from, the 8V models aren't even acknowledged as existing. The 8V Griso and Stelvio still do not appear there.

[Guzzirider]

Well you have bought a new bike with a warranty so obviously Guzzi should sort it out at their expense.

 

I'd use the breakdown service to take the bike to your dealer and tell 'em either to sort it out as per the recall, or if they are unwilling to do that your money back under Sale Of Goods Act. Should not cost you a penny.

 

Kick some arse!

 

Guy

[Paul Minnaert]

BG, did you contact your dealer about this? If it was mine I could't wait to take the top of to see what is wrong, on the other hand, you won't give them anything as excuse for not covering it ith warranty. How many miles does it have?

[pete roper]

The plug caps are a right bastard. There is of course a ridiculously expensive Guzzi special tool to get them out but Todd Haven sent me this link for what MPH use, presumably it is the sort of instrument used on a lot of modern cars.

 

http://www.setools.com/spbplier.shtml

 

 

I have been looking for something similar here but not very hard. I think I'll just order one from the USA.

 

Pete

[Paul Minnaert]

That shop has all sorts of nice to have tools, lifesavers in some cases.

[pete roper]

What do you make of this? The black guide that the rod moves in is loose and moves up and down with the rod. Do you think that is normal, or should it remain tightly fixed in place? It's not on the recall replacement parts list. The rods aren't on the list either, so MG expect all the problem to be with the camshafts only.

 

Sorry? The 'Black Guide'? Could you elaborate, do you mean the part that the little pushrods go in? If so they are the tappets, they are the bits that fail, they are a sort of inverted 'T' shape with a hollow stem the crosspiece of the 'T' is the tappet foot that contacts the cam.

 

The guide sleeves that move up and down. You can see that one protrudes more than the other here.

 

Yup, they're the tops of the tappets.

 

Pete

[belfastguzzi]

Pete
thanks for the link to the tool. Is that similar to the special MG tool?

Do you have an idea about that black pushrod sleeve? do you think it's normal for it to be loose and to move up and down with the rod, or could it be part of the problem?
EDIT see below


Paul
I contacted my dealer straight away: that was more that a month ago. He has given me no response, no reply of any sort. I phoned again today. The person who answered said that they don't know anything and that the owner isn't there. He said that the owner will contact me next week. I have been waiting for more than a month, so clearly the dealer has no interest or concern at all. That means that I can have no faith or trust that the dealer will do anything to sort this out properly. For sure the fulll PDI was not done. For sure everything that is meant to be done at the first service was not done.

I have tried to contact MG Customer services through their website contact form. It won't send. It doesn't work. I have tried to contact Customer Services by email. It doesn't work either. I got an error message. Does anyone know what it says?
>>
Il recapito non è riuscito per i seguenti destinatari o liste di distribuzione:
CustomerService@piaggiogroup.com
L'indirizzo di posta elettronica del destinatario non è stato trovato nel sistema di posta elettronica del destinatario. Non verranno effettuati ulteriori tentativi di recapito del messaggio. Controllare l'indirizzo di posta elettronica e provare a inviare di nuovo il messaggio oppure fornire il testo di diagnostica seguente all'amministratore di sistema.

Well, I guess that Piaggio has changed or blocked their email system.
So I am in the dark, with no one to contact and no one prepared to take responsibility.

Edit
Pete, you answered while I was typing.

The sleeves are in the picture here:

The two black tubes / sleeves that the rod runs through, from the cam below.
It doesn't seem right that they should be loose. Surely that is going to generate a huge amount of friction?

If that is still not clear, I'll put arrows on the photo.
D

[pete roper]

Pete

thanks for the link to the tool. Is that similar to the special MG tool?

 

Yup, sure is, its just a fraction of the price

 

Paul

I contacted my dealer straight away: that was more that a month ago. He has given me no response, no reply of any sort. I phoned again today. The person who answered said that they don't know anything and that the owner isn't there. He said that the owner will contact me next week. I have been waiting for more than a month, so clearly the dealer has no interest or concern at all. That means that I can have no faith or trust that the dealer will do anything to sort this out properly. For sure the fulll PDI was not done. For sure everything that is meant to be done at the first service was not done.

 

I have tried to contact MG Customer services through their website contact form. It won't send. It doesn't work. I have tried to contact Customer Services by email. It doesn't work either. I got an error message. Does anyone know what it says?

>>

Il recapito non è riuscito per i seguenti destinatari o liste di distribuzione:

CustomerService@piaggiogroup.com

L'indirizzo di posta elettronica del destinatario non è stato trovato nel sistema di posta elettronica del destinatario. Non verranno effettuati ulteriori tentativi di recapito del messaggio. Controllare l'indirizzo di posta elettronica e provare a inviare di nuovo il messaggio oppure fornire il testo di diagnostica seguente all'amministratore di sistema.

 

Well, I guess that Piaggio has changed or blocked their email system.

So I am in the dark, with no one to contact and no one prepared to take responsibility.

 

What a shitfight. Mate, I'm really sorry for you. Unfortunately in Oz individual dealers/service agents like me don't get access to the full warranty system, it's all *handled* by the importer otherwise I'd simply order the recall bits for you and post 'em over, it's not a big or complicated job. As it is I'd kick up a stink about this lack of interest and take it to another dealer. Is there more than one dealer in Northern Ireland? What about the Republic?

 

It frustrates me so much, I hear stories like this from all over the world and its so friggin' un-neccessary. It's not like a Guzzi, even the 8V, is a particularly complex bit of kit and anyway, it's all just nuts and bolts at the end of the day. People shouldn't have this sort of grief!!!

 

Pete

[pete roper]

Edit

Pete, you answered while I was typing.

 

The sleeves are in the picture here:

The two black tubes / sleeves that the rod runs through, from the cam below.

It doesn't seem right that they should be loose. Surely that is going to generate a huge amount of friction?

 

If that is still not clear, I'll put arrows on the photo.

D

 

I reckoned that was what you meant. Those are the tappets, no, there's friction, there always will be when something goes up and down in an 'ole, (F'nar-F'nar!) but the whole area is swimming in oil and they aren't, or shouldn't be, tight. It's not an inteference fit. You know how on the pushrod models like the V11 the cam followers sit in holes bored in the crankcase? Well this is just the same it's just that the followers/tappets have narrow stems rather than being as wide as the 'Foot' and the holes they run in are bored in the 'Scaffold' rather than in the head or the block.

 

They, along with the camshafts themselves, will be the bits you'll be tossin' away and replacing. If the 'Mechanic' at the shop can't perform this task one would have to wonder how he manages to sleep through the night and continue breathing? Perhaps his partner has to sit next to him and poke him with something sharp every 5 to 8 seconds to keep him going?

 

Pete

 

PS, I'll see if I can somehow post up an exploded view of the head so you can have a looksee at how it all goes together.

[pete roper]

 

There y'go. What you're looking at is the top of part #13 The dinky little pushrod, part#12, sits inside it. Wghat happens is that the broader 'Foot' on the base of the tappet gets worn because of the inadequate case hardening and, (Well, this is my belief.) the fact that it wasn't radiused and the cam isn't designed to impart spin any other way. Once the wear starts it is VERY rapid. The cams will be biffing the tappets 3,000 times a minute at 6,000RPM and when the very hard (60+Rw) cam starts rubbing one the cheesy

 

Pete

[belfastguzzi]

Unfortunately in Oz individual dealers/service agents like me don't get access to the full warranty system, it's all *handled* by the importer otherwise I'd simply order the recall bits for you and post 'em over, it's not a big or complicated job. As it is I'd kick up a stink about this lack of interest and take it to another dealer. Is there more than one dealer in Northern Ireland? What about the Republic?

Pete

Well, hey, thanks for the solidarity and support. It's a heck of a lot better than the......

*silence* ...... from the local guy!

 

Cheers.

 

 

 

 

On dealers: someone ventured the question before, are Aprilia dealers made to take Guzzi, even if they don't want them? I wonder.

This place where my bike came from does Aprilia and has only recently had MG. Maybe Piaggio forces Guzzi onto dealers? And this lack of involvement, care, knowledge is the result.

 

My only other option would be to go England. That's not a satisfactory solution and another dealer wouldn't want to deal with this anyway.

[pete roper]

My only other option would be to go England. That's not a satisfactory solution and another dealer wouldn't want to deal with this anyway.

 

Why not? For f@cks sakes. It's not a huge job. The factory will pay us about 3 hours per bike I think. I'd guess that after I've done a couple I could probably knock one over in less time than that. Anyway? Aren't dealers/service agents OBLIGED to do recall work regardless of place of purchase? I know that this can be a sore point as it tends to lead people to buy where it is cheapest and then get the warranty done elsewhere and yes, that is a REAL pisser, especially if it is some sort of huge shitfight like Bill Hagan's oil pump detonation on his Norge but swapping out the cams???? Please!!!!

 

Get a good shop to do the work and then reward them by buying all your bits off 'em and getting any other major work done by 'em after warranty expires.

 

Pete

 

PS, I wasn't implying that Bill bought his bike elsewhere and then had the warranty done by the 'Good Guys'. He bought from MPH and MPH did the reconstruction..

[Guzzirider]

Hi David

 

My suggestion is to contact Colin or Shirley Patterson at Promark who take care of Guzzi PR in the UK. Mention your problem, and give them the opportunity to resolve it before you take the whole story of the 8V recall and your dealer's lack of service to MCN. That will hopefully spur them into some action.

 

If your dealer has lost interest, maybe Promark could arrange transportation of your bike at their expense to Dublin or England for the recall work.

 

Jason at Moto Strada would do the warranty work I am sure.

 

 

Promark

 

Guy