8V cam Pt 2: follow-up

[luhbo]

The filter doesn't deform when it goes into bypass. Rather, a valve opens, dumping the oil around the filter element. It's non-destructive and repeatable without consequence to the filter.

 

That's no problem, because in the meantime the engine was cleaned, the tappet changed and the filter renewed. Why should the filter go into bypass? What bad things should go elsewhere in the engine now?

 

You're (not you, it's just your post ) mixing up everything you've ever heard off in order to get this engine torn apart.

 

The early V-engines had no filter for years, most of them still today are running without filters, just with a sief, even without the proper old "sump building" oils, without any problems.

[raz]

That's no problem, because in the meantime the engine was cleaned, the tappet changed and the filter renewed. Why should the filter go into bypass? What bad things should go elsewhere in the engine now?

Isn't it a problem if the filter was in bypass mode for hundreds of miles BEFORE the recall work, with the oil full of particles?

[pete roper]

You're (not you, it's just your post ) mixing up everything you've ever heard off in order to get this engine torn apart.

 

The early V-engines had no filter for years, most of them still today are running without filters, just with a sief, even without the proper old "sump building" oils, without any problems.

 

Not if their tappets started disintegrating. Then they trashed themselves completely.

 

Look, If it was my engine and I found that sort of damage I'd be having it apart. Unfortunately it doesn't look like Dave is going to get that option. To my mind that's a shame as he is being asked to take on trust something that defies the rules of mechanics.

 

I still maintain that there will be particulate damage. The bloke that worked on it claimed there was no frag evident in the engine. All the ones I know of that have failed seriously the cam-boxes were full of shrapnel. If you loom at the pc of Dave's failed cam there is something that looks bloody like particulate crud right next to the lobe on the right. Plenty big enough to do damage to the pump but small enough to fit through a mesh filter.

 

OK, I know what I know, no point in pursuing this any further, it's not going anywhere.

 

Pete

[Greg Field]

That's no problem, because in the meantime the engine was cleaned, the tappet changed and the filter renewed. Why should the filter go into bypass? What bad things should go elsewhere in the engine now?

 

You're (not you, it's just your post ) mixing up everything you've ever heard off in order to get this engine torn apart.

 

The early V-engines had no filter for years, most of them still today are running without filters, just with a sief, even without the proper old "sump building" oils, without any problems.

 

Luhbo:

 

I don't mean to be argumentative. I'm just trying to help Belfast. I do have direct experience with this stuff through working at the busiest Guzzi dealership in the US and through working on them in my home shop. Here's clarification of what I'm saying:

 

1) It's impossible to clean steel fragments out of the main, rod, and cam bearings. Once the steel fragments're embedded in the bearing material, you could flush a tanker full of oil through there, and the fragments would all remain.

 

2) How do I know there are fragments in there? I don't. But my experience with the hydro engines that had similar cam/tappet wear is that the ones that fragmented as bad as Belfasts almost always had ruined oil pumps, rod bearings, main bearings, and if run long that way, the crankshaft. THe hydro EVs use the same filter as the Griso does. When enough fragmentation has happened, the particles fill the filter, which cause it to bypass, and all further fragmentation and even some of the frag already in the filter, gets pumped through the bearings. Then, those bearings become a high-speed grinder that will take out the crankshaft in a relative hurry. MANY hydro EVs were fitted with the cam update but were not checked for damage to the pump and bearings. Several times a year, I get a call from a guy who suddenly has very low oil pressure, and I tell him where to look. Always, the pumnp and bearings were damaged, and now he has to rebuild the engine at his own expense because it is out of warranty. I believe Belfast has a strong case for inducing Guzzi to authorize a look.

 

As for the older engines without a filter, they universally look horrible inside if they have any miles on them. Everything is scored and worn. THey may still be running, buth they're running in pain. Better to have a filter and change it. If the cam in you non-filter engine failed like Belfast's did, the motor would be completely ruined in 100 miles or less.

[luhbo]

Isn't it a problem if the filter was in bypass mode for hundreds of miles BEFORE the recall work, with the oil full of particles?

 

Was it?

 

And for the others: of course stripping down the whole engine and clearing and cleaning every part was absolutely the best solution from a mechanical point of view. On the other side, in this case this would mean a whole season lost and probably more lost money in the end. But not for you, only for the owner.

 

Hubert

[mike wilson]

Was it?

 

Given that just one tappet had a whole feeler blade set of wear on it (about 4mm? x the diameter of the foot) I would think that there is enough particulate matter circulating the engine to potentially block the filter and cause it to bypass at least partly.

 

If it was my machine, that I had just spent ~£10,000 on, I would be much less than happy that something like this had gone wrong - but I would be much unhappier at the way the supplier was trying to deal with it.

[raz]

Was it?

Hundreds of miles, yes. Oil full of particles, yes. Those two are for sure with that cam, I assume we can agree on that. Filter in bypass mode? I don't know. Do you?

I can see your point, it's just that as a customer one would want Guzzi to take the "was it?" risk, either with a generously extended warranty or with an extended recall procedure for bikes with that much material ground off the lobes.

[belfastguzzi]

- but I would be much unhappier at the way the supplier was trying to deal with it.

That's as big an issue as the damage itself. As I've said, probably here, but also to Piaggio-Guzzi: broken things can be fixed, but the lack of trust that is created by a company, the damage to its reputation because of the way that customers are treated – that is more difficult to fix. It's unacceptable that I haven't been able to get any word from the whole of the Guzzi system for the best part of a quarter of a year, on a newly purchased bike, with a factory fault. It's only now that I'm starting to get little bits of response from Guzzi, but even at that, there is an impression of deep reluctance in the system (not in all individuals, I'm sure). If Macguzzi is right in his observations at the factory, and the reports of lack of sales of the 8V models (in USA) are typical of the wider picture, then potentially Guzzi is in deep trouble with this new engine. In that case, given their defensiveness, I guess they will not, not, not start more investigations on customers' bikes and certainly not, not, not, not, not replace any motor, because they could be opening a flood-gate. That may be the situation. It doesn't mean that Guzzi is morally right and I think it's questionable that such short-termism will ultimately help the company. I think it's more likely to have the opposite effect.

 

So given that I'm not going to get further investigative help from Piaggio Guzzi and there is zero hope of getting a new engine or bike (not without some sort of court battle anyway) here's what I will do.

I simply don't have time to open the engine myself. I will try to get time to take the cam 'cage' out, as that will be quick and easy: but even for that wee job I don't know when I can do it in the next 2 weeks. Work is just hectic, as all the pressure of keeping things going here, finding money etc, is on me. I'm at work at the moment and am here every night and also weekends. I'll be away this weekend, but it's for work. What is the significance of the two weeks I mentioned? Well, I've been looking forwards all year to the V.11 UK rally that I'm organising here, in Northern Ireland, starting 21/22 May. I see it as my annual holiday. I didn't get holiday time at Easter there, or St Pat's day, nor will I on May day etc, so for me personally it would be a disaster not to have a bike on the road this month. Maybe I'll get the 850 fixed, but it's the time problem again.

 

So I'm going to ride the Griso. It's not because I'm disregarding the good advice that I've been given. I see it like this: if it's damaged then that will show up more after a few hundred miles and a bit of thrashing. I'll ride it in May and get a look at the cam bearings after that. Then there may be more pronounced evidence to present to 'the powers' or all the bits will look sweet and lovely and we'll be mightily relieved.

 

I want to say that I am tremendously grateful for all the help (information, advice, opinion and moral support) that people have given both on the Forum and off-board. It's also great that people are giving different views, rather than keeping quiet. That is the value of the Forum and the debate. At some point, the whole 8V story will emerge and we'll see what's what. Greg's probably writing the stage-play at the moment.

 

As it happens, I also have a major computer disaster at the moment, so I have no access to photoshop or anything like that. If I had, this book cover would read: Bad Vibes, Moto Guzzi and my part in its downfall. The author's name? Well insert your own choice.

Soon be time to think about what sandwiches to pack for that run up the Coast Road.

[macguzzi]

That wiil teach you to buy a mac!

[belfastguzzi]

That wiil teach you to buy a mac!

It was running fine as it was. I started to install a new Operating System last night and it went dead. The main file structure is irrepairably damaged but it only showed up because of the install. The damage could have been there for a long time, caused by a power-cut or something like that, maybe?

Thankfully I've been able to get all my stuff of it now, but it still won't do an erase and install. So I'm zeroing the data on the drive, hoping that I can install over that deeper erase. It's a long wait, while it does all that zeroing out on an 800GB drive. It's a good job that I've got work** to while I wait...

 

 

**work/web waffling, ahem.

[GuzziMoto]

Too bad you don't live in Maryland, we have lemon laws that would force them to buy the bike back. I have never done that but I did use the threat of it to get a manufacturer to extend their warrenty because of issues the bike was having.

I do agree that if you cannot get them to correctly fix it now I would ride it hard and fast, just make sure to keep records of service and what not so if it does fail they will not be able to back out of replacing it.

I think a trip or two to the dyno is in order.

[pete roper]

I think a trip or two to the dyno is in order.

 

Good idea. seriously.

 

Mine spent 1/2 an hour bouncing off the rev limiter before I did the recall work. No damage. Yours should be the same.

 

Pete

[luhbo]

I'd change oil and filter again after 500 - 1000 km (edit: or after the dyno session :edit). Then cut open the old filter and look what's inside. This may rise your confidence a bit.

 

Of course it's not funny how Guzzi or better it's representatives behave. Just let me remark that over here RAM clutch victims/owners got a 2 disk swap relatively easy, I think under warranty even. I'm afraid things like that have to do a lot wich dealer you've to deal with.

 

Hubert

[Greg Field]

Good luck with it, Belfast.

[luhbo]

David, any good, relaxing news in the meantime?

Last week I incidentaly met an old friend from scool days who, after 200.000 more or less trouble free km on an old 2V BMW-GS, now owns a Stelvio, comuting 100km daily as long as there's no ice. Ofcourse his engine failed as well. He called his dealer and told him he was worrying about some rapidly growing noises. "Ride on" this mastermind told him, "that's a Guzzi, they're noisy". She made it exactly one more day 'till it was quite. Now the dealer had to pick it up. Then he ordered the parts, got them after 2 weeks and then let the bike stand for another 2 f#*+g weeks because he thought those noobs at Guzzi had only sent him half of his order. You know, 8 valves - 8 tappets.

100% Superhero. With cape! 2000 km later he had to see him again for making him do the 10.000km service. Of course Superhero tried to refuse changing the oil fliter because he had done it only 3 weeks ago already!

 

The problem is, my friend thinks he has to stay with him because of the warranty and because he's the only official dealer under 100km around of him. The good thing is, nevertheless he still is full of stories how great the bike runs, how strange it behaves over 5000 rpm and what an exclusive feeling it is to have left the beamer mob behind, finally.

 

HTH, Hubert