8V cam Pt 2: follow-up

[belfastguzzi]

This is an excerpt from a letter that I have received.

 

If I am to pursue this, I will have to get the engine examined independently. As always, please carry-on commenting.

Clearly the Guzzi agent's view is somewhat narrow and blinkered. On the technicalities, he contradicts the findings and views of those who have given their opinion here and elsewhere.

 

I understand that you have been told from some unsubstantiated source that any such contamination can enter bearings/bushings etc and lead to damage or accelerated wear at a later date. On this issue I would point out that the oil pump delivers FILTERED oil at very high pressure and flow to all crank/rod bearings, cam and rocker surfaces and piston spray jets in this engine, washing particulate away from these areas with considerable force and down into the sump. It is therefore impossible for any debris to enter these areas.

...

Matters such as this are regularly the subject of discussion on internet forums. It is an unfortunate fact that many such forums are contributed to by individuals who are not as knowledgable of the subject on which they comment as they would like to think and regularly quote gossip and rumour as fact. This has the effect of breeding mechanical hypochondria which should be recognised.

[luhbo]

Being not sacrosanct as others here I nevertheless must admit that I like his writing. To me it makes sense, good sense even. If it was an old Ducati or Laverda with roller bearings then this whole debris shit ruminated here over and over again could maybe make sense. Not for a Guzzi and not at all based on this 5 or 6 lousy pictures you've posted (not talking about their quality).

 

Why don't you just pick up your repaired Griso at the dealer and have fun with it again? How long do you have guarantee left for it? Summer is now. I wouldn't let my bike stand at some dealer I don't know and don't trust, waiting to become examed by some expert I don't know and don't trust, fetching a dent here and a scratch there, only to loose this case and more money as soon as winter comes.

 

You might have had really bad luck with your Guzzis, bad experiences with dealers and with the factory and so on. You won't change this, just loose another summer. Fogg them and go riding.

 

I don't think this will really help you, it's just what I'd do if I was sweating your shoes. Don't think there will be a collective Guzzi strike. People will feel with you - maybe - and go out riding.

 

Hubert

 

BTW: in my Beatle and Guzzi 750 engines always lots of silvery powder could be found in the sump. Regardless how often I cleaned it. On the VW engines you could even see those rubbed off particles glitter when the oil was running out of the screw hole. They all made at least 200.000 km (not the Guzzi of course - that would have taken decades).

[belfastguzzi]

fetching a dent here and a scratch there,

Thanks for your contribution H.

Your advice about collecting it before it gets a dent or scratch comes too late.

I have got the bike back – and it has acquired both things at the dealers. There is a long fresh scratch along the tank and worse, a little dent or nick in a fork leg, like something has been dropped against it! I'm sure that wasn't there before, as I clean and check the forks all the time. I'm sensitive about them because I've had the experience of the Scura fork seals leaking so quickly.

The dealer's workshop was a real mess and I couldn't see any clean or clear area of workbench or floor.

[belfastguzzi]

Hubert

the V11 transmission oil was always the same. The bottom of the gearbox was a slither of metal fillings. The gearbox is one thing: I don't like the thought of that up around the heads though. What about the damage to the hydro 1100s that is documented, resulting from just this sort of debris becoming embedded in oil pumps and elsewhere and causing repeat failures, from what I understand.

 

As said by someone else:

 

"Just a few years ago, Guzzi had problems with the camshafts on the hydro California models self-destructing. On many of these hydro Calis, the swarf from a grenading camshaft and/or lifters entirely clogged the filter and sent them into bypass mode. Once the filter was clogged, swarf-laden oil was circulated through the engine bearings. This swarf became embedded in the bearings, turning the bearings into high-speed grinders that would quickly ruin the crankshaft and other parts if the bearings were not replaced."

[luhbo]

.... This swarf became embedded in the bearings, turning the bearings into high-speed grinders that would quickly ruin the crankshaft and other parts if the bearings were not replaced."

 

That's one of the really strong properties of sleeve bearings: they can embed lots of "things" coming between them. And Guzzi crankshafts normaly were well hardened/nitrided. If they ever knew how to make something really good then it were the crankshafts.

But hey, it's not my bike, it's not my turn to tell you to make this or that. My personal preferences need not apply to others with the same results.

 

Hubert

[pete roper]

So what are you saying Hubert? That DAve should just ride it, even though it is seriously damaged and could fail again at any time and then sell it just before the warranty runs out so when it does let go its some other poor sucker's problem?

 

Nice!

 

Pete

[luhbo]

No, this is not what I'm saying.

 

I'm saying that I am not clearly seeing this engine is damaged and could let go at any time.

 

I'm saying that the letter from Guzzi sounds reasonable. I see that this is contrary to what you said and that it is clearly pointing to your sort. Scism?

 

I'm not saying BFG should cheat others.

 

I'm saying he should take his bike and ride it as long as he has something left of what Guzzi calls warranty. If the engine was damaged it will fail within this time. If not, what's the problem?

 

Hope this helps (alas I doubt)

 

Hubert

[Mark909]

From where I sit it seems that you have to decide whether to spend money on independent opinion/evaluation of the engine (which I imagine would not be cheap as it would involve tearing the engine down, someone please correct me if this is not the case). If this information shows the engine to be damaged more extensively you have to get the distributor to accept the findings (unlikely?). Next step, court action? Cost?

 

Or do you do as Hubert suggests and do with the bike what you bought it for, ride it. Ride it lots, ride it hard, keep the services up to date and if something does go wrong it is warranty claim time. This is something only you can decide.

 

I really feel for you, to have spent big money on a new bike and to have the experience ruined like this is just sad. I really hope the recall does the trick, but I also realize there are people here who really know their stuff who say it won't. I think for this guy to assume all those who post in forums do not know about such things is head in the sand syndrome. Good luck with it.

[pete roper]

This is a straight pull from a reply to Dave on another board. I think it relevant.

 

 

Now my 8V manual CD, (Or at least I hope that's what it is.) dropped onto my doormat on Friday) so I'll be going through and double checking this but my understanding is that one side of the new twin vane oil pump delivers high pressure/lower volume oil and this provides the feed for most of the plain bearings as on the older pushrod motors BUT the other vane provides lower pressure and greater volume for the top end and (?) under piston jets.

 

Now regardless of the fact that the oil pump is still going to be picking up unfiltered oil so it'll be garbage can anyone explain how these two deliveries could be sent to a common filter and then separated again to perform their separate functions??? Rather defies the laws of physics dunnit?

 

Also, while the bloke who did your work dropped the sump for a looksee I'd confirm that he also opened the timing chest as that is where the oil pumps reside and you cannot even SEE the pump from the sump, never mind inspect it properly as it lives on the front of the carnkcase inside the timing chest and has a dirty great gear on the front of it.

 

To me it simply sounds like you're being bolloxed about by another retard. Did you sen him the pics of the cams from your bike? did he make ANY comment on the state of the cam journals???

 

Pete

 

PS. The fact he can't even see that the oil pump is still going to be picking up frag, even if theoretically it would be filtered out, (Perhaps on the second of third circulation if it's small enough to pass through the bearings/jets fed by unfiltered oil.) I think clearly indicates that he doesn't have much of a clue about mechanics and certainly hasn't a clue about the vagaries of his own product.

 

Hubert. You consistently seem to assume that the factory and its repreresentatives never make design mistakes and always act in the best interest of their customers. You denied that the oil pick-up problem ever occured on V11's and practically accused me of selling an un-neccessary product for obscene profit, something that I'm afraid I find laughable. I do find your attitude to what could be an issue not just of reliability but of safety not only based on ignorance but also, quite frankly, cavalier in the extreme.

[belfastguzzi]

Great: you have mentioned two things that I wanted to ask about last night, but I didn't because I didn't want to keep harping on endlessly.

 

The questions were and still are

1) has anyone got a workshop manual and/or parts manual yet

2) can the pump(s) be removed and inspected from the sump, which is what the dealer and UK agent seem to be saying? I will specifically ask the agent about this, but I would like to be sure – Pete, is the only way to get at the pump, to go through the timing chest?

 

PS not to worry about schisms etc, folks.

It's valuable to get different opinions. That's what a forum needs.

[pete roper]

The sole and ONLY way to get to the oil pump is, and always has been, to remove the timing chest cover. With the 8V and other models with the alternator in the valley the alternator has to be removed, the belt un-hookedand the lower pulley removed prior to removal of the cover. This NOT the belt cover,it is the cover BEHIND the pulley.

 

Once this is off you will see the gear-train that drives the oil pump and the dummy shaft that carries the cam chains.

 

On earlier pushrod bikes the cam which runs in the place the dummyshaft is driven by a chain and inspecting the pump requires removal of the entire train of sprockets with the chain. While i haven't done this to an 8V motor my guessis that on this engine you can just remove the pinion that drives the oil pump and then the pump can be un-bolted from the timing chest and inspected.

 

There is absolutely NO POSSIBLE WAY that the oil pump can be accessed or inspected from the sump.

 

The manual is available on the Servicemotoguzzi site but since various forums and people have been thretened for publishing public stuff on the net from that site I'm reluctant to link it. I'll burn you a copy if I can off this new disc I got sent, (Working on my Mana today, forgot to bring the disc from the shop...). essentially though the bottom end design is still virtuakky identical to the earlier bikes with the exception of the twin-vane pump and oil jets. The real question is which bearings and parts are fed by the unfiltered delivery and whether or not the bearings that are so supplied are damaged. It is obvious from your pics that your cam journals are shot. For that to be the case the bearings in the camboxes have to be full of shit. End of story.

 

Pete

 

Pete

[luhbo]

snip

....Hubert. You consistently seem to assume that the factory and its repreresentatives .....snip

 

 

No again. Not true your writing, Pete.

 

I'm not saying Guzzi doesn't make mistakes. I am in this business. All this time I never did similar designs exactly the same way the second or even third time I came to it. Compared to the (imaginative) 100% solution you could say those designs were faulty - I see this differently .

 

For me these Guzzi designers and engineers do a very good job, alas business is more but drawings and meetings and listening to the experienced line worker and mechanic.

 

And this "making money" thing. I wrote, this device "makes money move at least". I well remember it . This was a bit harsh, ok. And wrong, right. This thing has nothing to do with making money, it's more a bilateral psychological device I'd better written.

 

BTW, Mark909 wrote exactly, more or less, what I wanted to express. It's BFB being grounded, not us.

 

Hubert

[belfastguzzi]

The manual is available on the Servicemotoguzzi site but since various forums and people have been thretened for publishing public stuff on the net from that site ...

Including the 'technical updates' I suppose? The recall stuff.

[luhbo]

...... It is obvious from your pics that your cam journals are shot......

 

How? Or why? That's the question on which's given answer all your writing and "breeding mechanical hypochondria" as "this bloke" - as you prefer to call him - has written.

 

Man, such statements based on pixelized digital photos shared via internet - man, this tops even the OTS-thread.

 

Hubert

[belfastguzzi]

We cannot judge with absolute certainty, by the photos, even though it looks obvious.

So, for that reason I have asked to get the cams from the dealer. I am sure that he will not give them though!

 

When I took the photo it was only looking at the lobe and the tappet bowl foot.

When I saw my own photo afterwards I kicked myself that I did not study the whole cam properly and also get more photos of it. Stupid.

It is a lot easier to start further investigation by looking properly at the cams, which are already out, than by opening the engine.

 

However, from the photos, I think we can agree that the tappet foot isn't quite what it should be!