Oil level

[guzzipete]

The shop I purchased my bike from said they serviced the bike as per the owners manual. The manual calls for 3.5 L, so 3.5 L went in. It went over the full mark on the dip stick by about 3/4". Once I started running it around I noticed it was blowing oil out the crankcase breather hose and into the air box, where overnight it subsequently dribbled its way out of the intake near the left hand throttle body and down over the starter motor.

 

I removed enough oil to bring it back down to just below the full mark, and the problem went away. I read in a few threads that the full mark on the dip stick is low, but in this situation it seems spot on. What gives?!

 

No, the oil pressure light has not come on since, and as an aside I've since replaced the intake pipe on both sides (figuring if oil could get out, unfiltered air could get in).

 

Here I was ready to put 4 Quarts in at the next service. I'm sure various gaskets are glad I didn't.

 

I've also since found out that my bike was involved in an accident ~4 years ago. I don't have the fuzzy engine paint that an '02 model should, so am thinking that I have an '03 or later engine. Would this make any difference?

[Guest ratchethack]

Pete, I sympathize with your situation. For the life of me, I cannot comprehend how or why so many on this Forum have got so fixated on measuring oil volumes for an oil change -- but there seem to be lots of posts that indicate this. It can be very misleading, resulting in exactly your situation, which I find completely unnecessary, and a very easily avoidable waste of both oil and time, not to mention making a mess in the airbox and/or on the ground and/or on the rear tire , depending on where the oil condensor breather happens to be routed.

 

The fact is, when changing oil on this or any other motor, it's quite literally impossible to drain all the old oil out. With the V11, as with many other motors, the problem is compounded by: 1. an oil cooler that cannot drain (without being turned upside-down), 2. the oil cooler's feed and drain circuit, part of which may or may not drain, 3. the usual oil left welled-up in rocker boxes and oil galleries, 4. in the oil filter (if you're changing it every other oil change), and 5. oil remaining behind in the sump itself. The total amount of oil left in the motor after draining will also vary according to the exact level of the bike, and who knows what alignments of planets control the formation of internal air pockets in the oil that may or may not form in which oil galleries when you drain it? In other words, regardless of operating level before the change, the amount of old oil that's left in tends to vary considerably from oil change to oil change.

 

The manual calls for the exact amount of oil to add to a 100% DRY factory motor on the assembly floor. It follows that if you've got as much as ~.5 L or more of oil left in there after draining, and then you add as much as the factory spec's on top of this, you'll be over-filled by ~.5 L or more.

 

So why anyone would ever go to the trouble and mess of measuring new oil going into any motor is beyond me. I've probably done many hundreds of oil changes on a wide variety of vehicles, and never once measured the amount of oil going in. I've always simply made sure to have MORE THAN ENOUGH new oil on hand for the job, and then filled it to the proper level.

 

After re-filling according to the dipstick, the correct procedure is to run the motor up to full operating temp ON THE ROAD (NOT STATIONARY!) to ensure that the oil thermo valve that feeds the oil cooler opens, purging any amount of air that may have entered the oil cooler line and galleries when the oil was drained. Invariably, the level will drop as all the air pockets fill with oil. Allow to cool, check the level again, top off to the correct level, and don't give it another thought for as long as you think it's safe. In my case with the V11, it's always been more than safe, with minimal-to-imperceptible oil loss until the next oil change, though I usually check it "for the halibut" somewhere around the half-way mileage point just to make sure.

 

EDIT:

. . . as an aside I've since replaced the intake pipe on both sides (figuring if oil could get out, unfiltered air could get in).

Hm. Somebody will correct me if I'm wrong on this, but since I've had my air box out a few times, (it's been years), but IIRC, (unless I'm thinking of the air box on another moto?) it's fitted with one-way drip valve(s) so it can't fill up with oil in situations exactly like you've described, or under conditions of excessive blow-by, whenever the oil condensor is overwhelmed, so welled-up liquid oil cannot get into the intakes, only oil vapor that hasn't condensed.

. . . am thinking that I have an '03 or later engine. Would this make any difference?

No. All V11 oil capacities are the same, unless modified.

 

Hope this helps, my friend.

[tmcafe]

RH, thanks for the comments. I know that many if not most of us fill up the engine with up to 4 qt of oil, and that even the "official" 3.5 lit full will raise the level quite a bit above the factory full mark on the dipstick. There have been several threads/posts about this. One of the reasons is to prevent oil starvation during fast acceleration (the Roper plate allows for an even higher oil quantity).

 

IIRC you have an aftermarket dipstick which you custom marked for the full level. Now I can't recall exactly where you put the full mark, and what was the rationale for it, so could you refresh our memory?

[Guest ratchethack]

RH, thanks for the comments. I know that many if not most of us fill up the engine with up to 4 qt of oil, and that even the "official" 3.5 lit full will raise the level quite a bit above the factory full mark on the dipstick. There have been several threads/posts about this. One of the reasons is to prevent oil starvation during fast acceleration (the Roper plate allows for an even higher oil quantity).

 

IIRC you have an aftermarket dipstick which you custom marked for the full level. Now I can't recall exactly where you put the full mark, and what was the rationale for it, so could you refresh our memory?

TMC, the full and low marks on my billet aluminum dipstick are exactly the same as the OE plastic one. I've measured them side-by-side. I run an oil level up to a maximum of just under 2 cm (measured vertically, see below) above the "high" mark, which keeps it just under the Roper plate when taking a read. As long as it's within as much as ~2-3 cm of the high mark, above or below, AS MEASURED ON THE DIPSTICK (a 45 degree angle from vertical), I've concluded it's safe -- much safer than without the Roper plate. That's just me, but I reckon my reasoning on this is logically sound, and my experience watching the oil pressure light on the road before and after bears it out.

 

Roper does a far better job than I can at describing this stuff, but here goes.

 

The rationale for running the level in the above range (based on 2 1/2 years now with the the Roper plate in) is that running with too much oil allowed to accumulate ABOVE the plate at any time offsets one of the side-benefits of the plate (decreasing parasitic drag on the crank) by partially walling-off that accumulation of oil within the confined space immediately adjacent to the crank, where the vortex of oil whipped up by the crank sucks it up, contributing to the unwanted mass of oil whirling around with the crank. Too much oil volume in the crankcase also needlessly decreases the compressible air volume of the crankcase, contributing to windage loss through the oil condensor, and tends to overwhelm the condensor by adding to the oil content of the air/oil mix that gets delivered to the condensor, and to some degree (however small this might be), adds to the previously mentioned parasitic oil drag on the crank, especially at higher RPMs. I noticed quicker spin-up right away above 5K RPM after installing the plate. I figure the OE low mark on the dipstick is ALSO "safer" than without the Roper plate, due to the fact that the large mass of relatively "calm" sump oil is now considerably walled off from the maelstrom around the crank, because it's very nearly as substantially restricted from "slopping" up and away from the pickup as it is with the level 2-3 cm above the high mark.

 

The shot below is a measure of where the high and low marks fall (again, identical to the OE dipsitck marks), measured vertically below the level of the block, and above the sump spacer (removed). The Roper plate and 2 gaskets take up ~3 mm. The dimples in the dipstick are there to aid reading the dipstick.

 

 

Hope this helps.

[guzzipete]

The manual calls for the exact amount of oil to add to a 100% DRY factory motor on the assembly floor. It follows that if you've got as much as ~.5 L or more of oil left in there after draining, and then you add as much as the factory spec's on top of this, you'll be over-filled by ~.5 L or more.

 

Hey, how'd you know that's how much I took out?!

 

... it's fitted with one-way drip valve(s) so it can't fill up with oil in situations exactly like you've described, or under conditions of excessive blow-by, whenever the oil condensor is overwhelmed, so welled-up liquid oil cannot get into the intakes, only oil vapor that hasn't condensed...

 

No, it definitely wasn't vapour that I was wiping off the inside of the throttle body. Oil had pooled in there. Perhaps my bike is missing these drip valves you speak of?

 

At any rate, I like your rationale/method of topping up the oil, so will do that from now on. Many thanks!

[guzzipete]

I know that many if not most of us fill up the engine with up to 4 qt of oil, and that even the "official" 3.5 lit full will raise the level quite a bit above the factory full mark on the dipstick.

 

Well how come y'all aren't getting any blow-by?! Perhaps this Roper plate does something to stop the oil sloshing up there?

 

Maybe these same people have K&N (or similar) pods, or are going sans lid, and as such no longer have the connection to the air box for the oil to go into? I guess in that case it finds its way where ever their crankcase breather hose ends up... out on the road?!

 

Just a thought...

 

This oil starvation is obviously an issue because a number of people have mentioned it, but then why isn't it happening to everyone's bike... hmmm... maybe it is, and my warning light is blown?!

 

...and why hasn't it been the subject of a factory recall? (or has it?) Surely at least one Guzzi engineer came across this problem in testing? Or that there would have been numerous customer complaints since, bringing the matter to the attention of management.

 

Do the people that experience this problem race their bikes? 'cause (as I've said before) I ride like a grandma (yes, skirt and all). Having said that I've ridden up some long steep hills (really steep) with the engine under load (I am naughty and tend to let it labour), and not a flicker of the oil light have I seen...

 

So many questions...

[pete roper]

Do the people that experience this problem race their bikes? 'cause (as I've said before) I ride like a grandma (yes, skirt and all). Having said that I've ridden up some long steep hills (really steep) with the engine under load (I am naughty and tend to let it labour), and not a flicker of the oil light have I seen...

 

So many questions...

 

Yes, We blew a motor on our racer because of pick up exposure, it's an older tTonti but was running an early, filterless pick-up that suffers from the same problem as the V11.

 

If you use high throttle/low RPM you a.) won't be accelerating very hard and probably won't risk pick up exposure and b.) WILL be giving greater opportunity for gas to blow by the rings and pressurise the case which can lead to oil expulsion, especially if your engine is over-filled and doubly so if the rings aren't seated because the original owner rode it like the red-line was at 4,000RPM.

 

There is a mark on the tacho, I think it is a red line? It's at about 8,000 on a V11 I think. That's your gear change indicator. If riding hard? Use it as such. If riding *normally* ride between 3,250 and 6,500 and DON'T EVER give it large throttle below about 3,000 because it is mean to the motor and will achieve nothing.

 

Pete

[DeBenGuzzi]

hmm, I suspect mine was broken in properly and I always let it drain for a good few min, haven't had any trouble putting in 3.5ish in mine without smoking smelling or dripping, maybe something different with the years somehow I have no idea but my original tank was also over a half gallon larger close to a gallon in fact, figure that one out

[gavo]

I run the oil level about 1cm over the full mark mainly because of what I've read here about oil starvation I've no problems no oil light flashing( that I've seen) no oil in the air box, I redline occassionaly but mostly stay below 6500rpm. check level before any ride longer than a short commute and haven't had to top up between changes. I gotta agree with RH why would anyone just pour in the 3.5 ltrs straight up there are variables such as RH described go for .5 to 1 ltr less then top up checking dip stick after all its easier to top up than suck the oil back out when overfull

[dlaing]

IMHO Everyone seems to have an opinion about what the proper oil level should be. Dumping in 3.5 liters will get you to somebody's idea of proper level

 

IMHO if you have the Pete Roper's Moto Moda shloppage sheet, you should run the oil between the high mark (dip stick screwed fully in) and the bottom of the sheet. I don't see why letting the oil drain for ten minutes when hot and changing your filter, then adding 3.5 liters won't get you there?!? Draining a cold engine for one minute in Winter might leave you overfilled. But keep in mind Pete's sheet lets you ride at a higher oil level.

 

IMHO For me, before I had a sheet, keeping the oil level between two thirds full and full on the dipstick was ideal. I'd top it to the full mark and not let it drop below two thirds. Again opinions vary, and you want to base the setting on where oil consumption nearly stabilizes. For me it was at about 2/3. Others on the forum claimed no oil consumption at full mark with dipstick screwed out. So if that works for you, and your air box is not filling with oil, go with that!

 

I added a modified version of Pete's sheet. My sheet rides lower than Pete's design, and I keep the level between the high mark and the plate that is higher than the high mark. Adding 3.5 liters gets it just about right for me with this setup, but I still pour in about 3.5 quarts, run it, measure dipstick, add oil, measure dipstick, add oil, until it measures right.

 

IMHO there will be differing opinions.

[tmcafe]

On a related note, IIRC there was a post/topic warning on the oil level in the bevel box--filling to the check level at the opening on the rear of the bevel box would result in less than the required 370 ml. While I'm assuming it is true, I still don't know what to make of it. Chime in if you do.

[guzzipete]

On a related note, IIRC there was a post/topic warning on the oil level in the bevel box--filling to the check level at the opening on the rear of the bevel box would result in less than the required 370 ml. While I'm assuming it is true, I still don't know what to make of it. Chime in if you do.

 

IMO it comes back to what RH said about the levels being for 'dry' components. The factory workshop manual is quiet specific on how to fill the bevel drive, requiring that the level be at the lip of the check opening. In fact, it goes on to state that the filler nut should be installed before the check level nut, meaning it would be impossible to add more oil to the drive once the appropriate level had been achieved. I think it would be foolish to install the check level nut first, add more oil, then install the filler nut. As stated, this is not the correct filling procedure as outlined in the manual.

[Greg Field]

I believe the factory's recommended quantity for the sump is correct and that it is the dipstick that is in error. If you fill to the recommended quantity, in the recommended way (meaning that the dipstick is threaded all the way in), rather than to the recommended level you are unlikely to ever expose the oil pickup. I will point out that this will increase the thermal inertia of the engine while reducing the required air gap and thus could cause running problems that don't really exist or the possible total destruction of your engine.

 

I do not recall having seen a drain hose from the V11 sump. Later bikes have one that is plugged off and must be drained periodically.

[GuzziMoto]

I believe the factory's recommended quantity for the sump is correct and that it is the dipstick that is in error. If you fill to the recommended quantity, in the recommended way (meaning that the dipstick is threaded all the way in), rather than to the recommended level you are unlikely to ever expose the oil pickup. I will point out that this will increase the thermal inertia of the engine while reducing the required air gap and thus could cause running problems that don't really exist or the possible total destruction of your engine.

 

I do not recall having seen a drain hose from the V11 sump. Later bikes have one that is plugged off and must be drained periodically.

Thanks, I needed that.