Oil Pan Removal

[OZVMoto1100]

Hmmmmm, interesting topic this. As always I find myself comparing the Guzzi to BMW-I still own an old and trusty R80/7 as well as my beloved California. Anyone who owns an early R series will tell you that oil changes on successive models, down through the ages, went through hard and easy periods-R75 oil changes could be a complete nightmare, whilst my R80 is a joy-I've only once ever needed to replace the "O" ring or the cap gasket on top of the filter in the last 5 years and can do the complete change in under 20 minutes! Whilst on some models the filter cap was completely misaligned to the frame rail resulting in much cursing and swearing as engine mounts are removed every oil change and the engine jacked-up so access can be gained to the filter. BMW recognized their lack of Tutonic efficacy and introduced two piece filters to stop the screaming.

 

So why am I carping on about BMWs on a Guzzi forum? Well, when I first purchased a Guzzi in 1985, a very nice Spada 1000 I dutifully purchased a technical manual to do my own servicing. The first thing that I realized in horror was that to change the oil filter one had to remove the oil pan! I thought this was totally ridiculous. But, the first time I did a complete oil service, I realized just how easy it really was and quite a good idea considering how much gunge could collect in the pan. Now I'm not much of a techno head, in fact it bores me shitless! However, the way I see it Guzzi must have had a very good reason as to why the engine was designed with the filter and the screen as part of the oil pan. If you take your time and are methodical, servicing the Guzzi can be very rewarding.

 

I've never worked out why more crap collects in a Guzzi sump than a BMW sump-yes, once a year I pull the pan off the R80 and only ever get a light film of muck off the bottom, whilst on the SP it was always filthy, even at 10,000 k intervals. The engine always ran strong and was in an excellent condition? Can't work that one out. Maybe it had something to do with filtering efficiency?? I've considered, more as a concession to my laziness than a real necessity to fit the outside oil filter conversion I've seen on the Harpers site to my 07 California. However something tells me that at $600US it's a lot of money to place your oil filter out in the slip stream of all the road debris being thrown back from the front wheel, plus I'm not sure it's a good plan to lower the sump level any more than it is now and risk damage from foreign objects.

 

See ya-goin for a ride!

[Guest ratchethack]

I've never worked out why more crap collects in a Guzzi sump than a BMW sump. . .

Seems to me it's usually dependent on a combo of:

 

1. efficiency of the air filter (lots of sub-standard air filters out there, very well documented)

2. road/air quality

3. both ambient and operating temps and temp ranges

 

(roughly in that order)

 

Better it accumulates in the sump than anywhere else (other than the filters, that is).

 

But o' course, that's just me.

[mille108]

Seems to me it's usually dependent on a combo of:

 

1. efficiency of the air filter (lots of sub-standard air filters out there, very well documented) <_>

2. road/air quality

3. both ambient and operating temps and temp ranges

 

(roughly in that order)

 

Better it accumulates in the sump than anywhere else.

 

But o' course, that's just me.

 

 

Well you lost me on number 1 and 2 i dont see how an airfilter and road quality can have a effect on sludge in the sump..

[Guest ratchethack]

Well you lost me on number 1 and 2 i dont see how an airfilter and road quality can have a effect on sludge in the sump..

Barring a significant mechanical problem or breach of the intake tract downstream of the air filter, there's only one way dirt can enter a motor from outside.

 

That's through the air filter.

 

If you have a substandard air filter and run on 100% clean paved roads in 100% clean ambient air (washed clean by frequent rain and/or nearby ocean breezes, perhaps?), no ambient particulate content in the air exists, therefore no dirt can get in, and no prob.

 

If, on the other hand, you have a substandard air filter and run on rough dirt roads in high particulate content ambient air, a buildup of dirt will accumulate inside the motor -- both in the oil filter, and/or the in the sump, and/or in other places, eventually taking a toll on precision parts.

 

Hope this helps.

[mille108]

Barring a significant mechanical problem or breach of the intake tract downstream of the air filter, there's only one way dirt can enter a motor from outside.

 

That's through the air filter.

 

If you have a substandard air filter and run on 100% clean paved roads in 100% clean ambient air (washed clean by rain and/or nearby ocean breezes, perhaps?), no dirt exists, therefore no dirt can get in, and no prob.

 

If you have a substandard air filter and run on rough dirt roads in high particulate content ambient air, a buildup of dirt will accumulate inside the motor -- both in the oil filter, and/or the in the sump, and/or in other places, potentially taking a toll on precision parts.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

Hmm fair enough...but i think that sludge is built up from carbon deposits wich are blown past the piston rings..

 

I can only imagine that BMW engines have better tollerances than guzzis and therefore less blowby..

 

Its intersting stuff because Saab turbo engines have similar problems with sludge building up in the sump,and with these engines the problem is the crank case vent system.

[Guest ratchethack]

Its intersting stuff because Saab turbo engines have similar problems with sludge building up in the sump,and with these engines the problem is the crank case vent system.

I put 265K miles on a '85 Saab DOHC 16V 2.2L 900T. Some coking of the oil was occasionally evident in the oil drain from the turbo. I replaced the PCV several times, nothing out of the ordinary. Many of these cars I know of (including mine) were run in high altitude alpine environments where ambient temps were relatively low, contributing to precipitation of coke and other hydrocarbon breakdown particles with some sludge buildup in the sump. There was a TSB that came out recommending lighter weight 10W 30 oil than originally spec'd. to reduce this. In the case of my 900T, following the factory maintenance schedule, it never became a significant problem, nor was any large sludge accumulation evident in the sump when the transaxle was replaced at 120K miles (the only significant Achilles heel of these great cars).

 

But o' course, that's just me.

 

 

The Venerable Saab 16V 900T

[mike wilson]

Barring a significant mechanical problem or breach of the intake tract downstream of the air filter, there's only one way dirt can enter a motor from outside.

 

That's through the air filter.

 

Or the crankcase venting system. In either case, it is u=due to a less than 100% efficiency, which is guaranteed.

 

Sometimes, this does not matter so much. There are documents detailing how particulate matter in the oil causes wear and, not suprisingly, it is the particles just larger than the clearances involved that cause most wear. Smaller (and larger) particles have dramatically less effect on wear rates and can (especially in the case of smaller - larger particles bring their own problems) be safely ingored. Especially as the cost of filtering smaller particles would be much higher.

[pasotibbs]

Hmm fair enough...but i think that sludge is built up from carbon deposits wich are blown past the piston rings..

 

I can only imagine that BMW engines have better tollerances than guzzis and therefore less blowby..

 

Its intersting stuff because Saab turbo engines have similar problems with sludge building up in the sump,and with these engines the problem is the crank case vent system.

Perhaps its because the V twin "breathes" heavier than a flat twin due to the changes of crankcase volume ?

[twhitaker]

Perhaps its because the V twin "breathes" heavier than a flat twin due to the changes of crankcase volume ?

 

I think not. The flat twin has both pistons at TDC at the same time. Also at BDC same time. Breathing would be 'heavier' than on a V twin although not much.

[pasotibbs]

I think not. The flat twin has both pistons at TDC at the same time. Also at BDC same time. Breathing would be 'heavier' than on a V twin although not much.

Yes of course it does

[Distilled Waters Run Deep]

Cali Jackal with what some people may think of as an upside-down filter.

No formal training or qualifications, but a lot of years & a few bikes & cars and never a filter has been over or under-tightened by my fair hairy hands. With previous posts on this in mind I put a bit more pressure on my filter than usual, & inwardly shrivelled because I hate coming to a filter so tight I have to butcher it to get it off... & belt & braces, a jubilee clip.

Thank you lads because I dropped the sump last night & found that clip bang up against the pressure valve (I'd left it a wee bit backed off just to see-) & once I'd removed the clip that sucker span out of it's thread as light as if it was a butter knife in margarine on a hot day.

 

I don't have shares in Jubilee.

[Guest ratchethack]

. . .I dropped the sump last night & found that clip bang up against the pressure valve (I'd left it a wee bit backed off just to see-) & once I'd removed the clip that sucker span out of it's thread as light as if it was a butter knife in margarine on a hot day.

Disturbing, alright. Seems many disregard the instructions on the filter entirely and have their own ideas of wot over and under tightened means. If you'd followed the tightening instructions given on the filter, I might be concerned.

I don't have shares in Jubilee.

DWRD, for all the Americans and others who might not savvy English,

 

 

Jubilee clip - in 'Merican it's, "hose clamp"

[Distilled Waters Run Deep]

I'll confess I don't have a proper wrench -but I reckon 10nm is somewhere near 8 foot-pounds, & I put a lot more weight on that filter than I would on a 6mm bolt.

 

But tomorrow, because I'm a neurotic procrastinator (I know, I'm a shrink) -I'll take a detour to a car parts shop & buy a filter wrench & fit it to my torque bar, drop the oil & sump again & see how tight it is...

I promise not to lie to you (honest, you can trust me...)

[Guest ratchethack]

. . .tomorrow, because I'm a neurotic procrastinator (I know, I'm a shrink) -I'll take a detour to a car parts shop & buy a filter wrench & fit it to my torque bar, drop the oil & sump again & see how tight it is...

I promise not to lie to you (honest, you can trust me...)

"Trust but verify", as someone once wisely said (and Maggie Thatcher famously agreed at the time, but that's neither here nor there). . .

 

Don't know if you're wanting to have the sump off for a particular reason, but no need to drop the sump just to check the torque on the filter if you've got the proper socket. The socket will fit straight through the manhole cover and you can torque away to your heart's content. With the Jubilee clip already on the filter, no problem going tighter.

 

Always best to follow the filter mfgr's tightening instructions to a "T", and Bob's y'er Mum's favorite brother.

 

Please do advise on results of your excursion.

[Distilled Waters Run Deep]

No manhole cover on a Jackal, Ratch -filter in sump.

I've remembered. too, that my torque wrench starts at 20ft/lbs...

 

I'm old enough to shudder at any possibility of Uncle Bob being related to the Big "T", evil witch of England, who ripped the heart out of our country with the nonsense she set in motion.

That may get a few replies...