V11 Suspension.......

[Guest ratchethack]

Good lord you are thick, Hack. How is it in a thread about chassis and suspension setup you go off on a pointless rant about engine performance? WTF? And to answer your question (I think there was a question in all that drival), you can BUY the parts to alter your late model V11 to mimic the early V11 steering geometry. It is not a secret and it is not voodoo. It works. Whether you want your V11 to steer like a early V11 or not is a personal preference thing. It is not a case of better or worse as much as it is different. I'm sure someone who thinks if Guzzis were meant to have better brakes then they have they would have come with them from the factory would not do such a thing, but for the rest of us it is a viable choice.

If you choose to try offset bearings, and/or lengthen the swingarm in an attempt to achieve better weight distribution, reduce the amount of weight it has with lighter wheels or other parts, move the weight the bike does have around in an attempt to improve on the way it came stock, or even put a narrower tire on the rear then what it came with, then more power to you as long as it's what you want. The fact that Hack does not seem to think the V11 needs to be improved upon (or can be improved upon) is meaningless and unimportant. I am sure it is fair to say that most of the owners here have moddified their V11s in some way from stock and feel that that mod has made their V11 a more enjoyable bike to ride, even Hack has altered his V11 from stock.

I'm not going to touch the whole motor mod thing as you've posted that same quote before and I said what I think then (I believe that thread was actually about motor mods).

Get ahold of yourself, GMoto. I simply asked you to back up your broad, unsubstantiated claim with something that would support it. Knowing you couldn't do it with V11 chassis performance, I generously threw in another option for engine performance, because you didn't specify anything in your blanket statement when you claimed, "greater potential rewards" than with "most other bikes". This gave you 2 alternative avenues to potentially redeem yourself. But no. . . It's not happening either way -- is it?

 

Of course you're not going to touch it, GMoto -- either way. Once again, you won't -- because you can't.

 

Once again, there's NOTHING behind your false statement wotsoever, well documented or otherwise. NOTHING.

 

Ignore my simple challenge and change the subject. Brilliant.

 

D'you figure this silly attempt to weasel your way out of your empty BS isn't fairly obvious to anyone who can fog a mirror?

 

Typical. Keep up the good work. At least your track record of spreading ignorance is consistent.

[Paul Minnaert]

I hadn't forgotten your Daytona, Paul. Are you aware of any such chassis mods known to be successful on a V11?

 

Well, the first v11 sport frame is almost the same, only one degree steeper. So there the things should work the same. The swingarm mod I made isn't done by almost noone else, only bormiparts has done such a thing: http://www.bormiparts.com He is one of the old G&B employees.

 

The v11 owners aren't so creative until now.

I know several people who cut the head of a daytona/centauro frame.

I did it in 2002/2003.

[raceboy]

Well, the first v11 sport frame is almost the same, only one degree steeper. So there the things should work the same. The swingarm mod I made isn't done by almost noone else, only bormiparts has done such a thing: http://www.bormiparts.com He is one of the old G&B employees.

 

The v11 owners aren't so creative until now.

I know several people who cut the head of a daytona/centauro frame.

I did it in 2002/2003.

 

 

Paul I'd be interested in more details on the geometry and the V11 bike itself, if possible.

 

In your previous post you mentioned shorter yokes, do you mean the offset is shallower? Also extending the swing arm and moving the pivot point, did you use a new or different swing arm or did you modify the stock unit. Details please??

 

Raceboy

[guzzi jon]

Paul I'd be interested in more details on the geometry and the V11 bike itself, if possible.

 

In your previous post you mentioned shorter yokes, do you mean the offset is shallower? Also extending the swing arm and moving the pivot point, did you use a new or different swing arm or did you modify the stock unit. Details please??

 

Raceboy

 

Since I dont post here much since a truck took out my 02 Lemans and nearly killed my good friend, I'm ignorant of all the progress the past couple of years. I can tell you that for my 02 Lemans, simply putting in a set of proper traxxion dynamics fork springs of the proper rate, using the proper oil, setting the sag correctly at both ends, then dialing the rebound and compression damping per normal posted practices yields a capable handling bike that far exceeds my abilities. Once simply sorted, the biggest bang for the buck to go faster is to do track days and learn about riding bikes fast..... The scientists here can argue, but, perfect handling bikes are absolutely not fast when ridden by a rider who does not understand handling and how to ride fast. sort your bike basically and focus your investment on track days and rider improvment..... If the scientists disagree, oh well, I can live with their apparent lack of the obvious....

Cheers,

Jon

[Paul Minnaert]

Paul I'd be interested in more details on the geometry and the V11 bike itself, if possible.

 

In your previous post you mentioned shorter yokes, do you mean the offset is shallower? Also extending the swing arm and moving the pivot point, did you use a new or different swing arm or did you modify the stock unit. Details please??

 

Raceboy

 

 

Yes, shorther offset yokes, I have 30mm offset. Original v11 swingarm is extended by welding new bearing holders to the front, see my website for all pictures. http://www.fastguzzi.nl/ see "my v12".

[mille108]

Cut and welded on a new headstock(bigger diameter) 2 degrees steeper,because modern forks have a thicker tripple tree pin.

 

wheelbase is now 1440..stock was 1480

 

MV Agusta 50mm Marzocchi front end has 30mm offset yokes,

 

 

Huge differnce in handling, tips in much faster and doesnt run wide anymore comming out of the corners.

 

[gstallons]

Wire feed ? What brand welding machine?

[Dan M]

Since I dont post here much since a truck took out my 02 Lemans and nearly killed my good friend, I'm ignorant of all the progress the past couple of years. I can tell you that for my 02 Lemans, simply putting in a set of proper traxxion dynamics fork springs of the proper rate, using the proper oil, setting the sag correctly at both ends, then dialing the rebound and compression damping per normal posted practices yields a capable handling bike that far exceeds my abilities. Once simply sorted, the biggest bang for the buck to go faster is to do track days and learn about riding bikes fast..... The scientists here can argue, but, perfect handling bikes are absolutely not fast when ridden by a rider who does not understand handling and how to ride fast. sort your bike basically and focus your investment on track days and rider improvment..... If the scientists disagree, oh well, I can live with their apparent lack of the obvious....

Cheers,

Jon

 

Pretty much it in a nutshell Jon.

[Baldini]

... a capable handling bike that far exceeds my abilities....a rider who does not understand handling and how to ride fast. sort your bike basically and focus your investment on track days and rider improvment..

 

 

Pretty much it in a nutshell Jon.

 

All very well, but the bloke who asked the question sounds like an experienced racer who has the ability to experience the limitations of the V11. He's simply interested in adjusting his bike more to suit his riding. Why the preaching?

 

I have not got the ability, money or time to make radical engineering changes to my V11 but am interested to hear any ideas or practice that would help the behaviour of the bike at it's limits.

 

I found the Scura tended to run wide on exits & would get quite upset when hitting bumps leant over. I fitted stiffer springs, set sag, dropped yokes down stanchions a little, tried 170 tyre. This all helped. Sitting far forward as possible thru turns helps front feel planted (I'm sure high bars would not help here). I would be very interested in anyone's experience with a shorter petrol tank to allow you to move further over front end. But V11 is heavy with rear wt bias & will get flustered when pushed. I wonder if chassis could do with stiffening along the line between between s/a pivots & headstock. S/a is short so suspension compliance is unsubtle. Frame was designed for longer 5 speed box, so lengthening s/a & moving pivot point is only completing the job that I'm sure Guzzi originally intended for the 6 speed. Good luck to you if you go down this route. For us less adventurous souls there's Michelin 2CT's & a spare pair of underpants.

KB

[Guzzirider]

Hmmm looking at you riding on the track Keith your bike seems to handle pretty well!

[Skeeve]

Hey boys & girls,

 

I've read on this forum that the V11 the ride/handling is acceptable, but if pushed harder the V11 tends show its suspension short comings. Now, I have read all (or most) info regarding fork and shock setup etc.; but the the topic I would like to get into is not so much component setup but the 'Geometry' of the V11.

 

The comments relate to the length of the swing arm and the front steering head geometry. What are the thoughts regarding the swing arm? What should or can be done? How should have Guzzi designed it? Thoughts about the front steering head/fork geometry?

 

May be some of the guys who have raced the V11 over the years and have done work along these lines can contribute as well. Where can this info be obtained?

 

Looking forward to everyone's thoughts.

 

Cheers,

Raceboy

 

As I think someone else replied already, the extra length of the '02+ bikes was in the "spine" of the frame, moving the headstock forward of the engine & hence affecting the rear wt. bias by decreasing wt. on the front end.

 

Thoughts regarding swingarm:

 

Motorcycle swing arms should be as long as possible.

Long swing arms tend to lengthen the wheelbase.

Long wheelbases tend to decrease maneuverability.

Trying the lengthen the swing arm while keeping the same wheelbase is what led to the 3-shaft 6-speed transmissions in our V11s.

The best solution would be a swing arm that pivoted on the front of the engine for the longest length possible while keeping the wheelbase short.

BTW, the longer the drive shaft the less the shaft-effect on shaft drive bikes.

 

Thoughts regarding suspension:

 

Guzzi suspension shortcomings mostly stem from excessive mass, not necessarily their shaft drive.

Excessive unsprung wt. [yes, on the rear this is largely due to the shaft drive, but what about the front?] is the enemy.

Lighter wheels, brakes & swingarm are your friends.

Lighter everything is better: have you tried to lift that old ditch pump yourself? Hoo boy, thatsa one porky motor! [NB: I'd love to have a spare set of cylinders to modify: I've got an aircraft bit and am willing to bet you could lose a couple pounds of aluminum from the fins [& increase surface area for cooling in the process] w/o too much trouble... but I'm not reckless enough to try it on the primary set! ]

Better components [you knew there was a reason some folks paid extra for the Scuras & RC & NC models despite their funky paint schemes, right? ] help.

Proper setup helps.

 

How Guzzi "should" have designed it:

 

Just the way they did.

And left it that way, instead of lengthening the spine.

But they couldn't risk it, because while Suzuki could eat the loss from the negative press from the moto rags railing about "headshake at speed" on the TL1000S & -R, Guzzi could have gone under from the press saying the same thing the following year about the V11. [The "press" in this case was full of b.s.: how does their inability to properly inflate tires/care for the machines they're road testing translate to a "design flaw" on the manufacturers' part? Newsflash: if you have a powerful, light-handling bike then the front end is going to get loose over bumps at speed! Ride like you mean it, dumbass! Stupid hacks get paid for this stuff & I have to just drool & wish it was me instead of them...]

 

Conclusions:

 

If you want something incredibly short & twitchy, get a Buell - that's their forte.

Don't try to turn a Guzzi into a sportbike; that's not what it was built for. As someone else said, "They're a gentleman's Express."

Go out & ride it. Make the changes you want to personalize it to suit you better, not to adapt it to some unrealistic ideal.

Ride it some more...

[Guest ratchethack]

Conclusions:

 

If you want something incredibly short & twitchy, get a Buell - that's their forte.

Don't try to turn a Guzzi into a sportbike; that's not what it was built for. As someone else said, "They're a gentleman's Express."

Go out & ride it. Make the changes you want to personalize it to suit you better, not to adapt it to some unrealistic ideal.

Ride it some more...

Good post, and very well said, Skeeve.

 

"Gentlemen's Express" is a fitting moniker, IMHO. But some hereabouts are um, well, not quite wot anyone would ever likely mistake for gentlemen -- if you know wot I mean?

 

How about, "The Locomotive of Euro-Sport Moto's". Has a skosh more blood-on-the-sleeve panache -- n' est-ce pas?

[Paul Minnaert]

man, this is boring here. Some don't see it. There are rational things and there is passione.

Most changes to a guzzi aren't worth it, if compared to what you get with a sv650 suzuki, but the whole guzzi is bad value compared to that.

It's no way to try to modify a v11 to get a bike like a modern Japanese 4. But that's not mentioned.

With modding my bike, it was to try to make it just as I thought it should have been from factory. And it is now like that. A friend who has done a lot of v11 / sport 1100 mods, drove my bike and commented: "if Guzzi build such a bike I would go and buy it."

[Dan M]

All very well, but the bloke who asked the question sounds like an experienced racer who has the ability to experience the limitations of the V11. He's simply interested in adjusting his bike more to suit his riding. Why the preaching?

 

No preaching Keith. Just discussion. From reading the original post though it seems to me the bloke has simply read others experience about the V11. He doesn't report his own findings. So all and all it is just discussion and opinion.

[Dan M]

man, this is boring here. Some don't see it.

 

It's no way to try to modify a v11 to get a bike like a modern Japanese 4. But that's not mentioned.

 

 

You're right Paul, it is boring. Seems we have to keep it that way. As soon as things get lively the plug gets pulled.

 

I believe I mentioned that in my first post on this thread: "Much can be done to improve handling but you will get to a point of diminishing returns. Trying to chase the weight and handling of a modern sport bike is a bit unreasonable"