throttle set up issue HELP

[Karl Von]

Hi All

 

I am helping my brother balance the throttle units on his Rosso Mandello. We have gone through the balance procedures and still have a issue. The left throttle unit keeps popping back. It will idle for a bit then go into this sneezing fit then die. You can see the flames come into the balance tubes I have set up.

 

From memory if it is popping back through the throttle unit or carb, it is lean. It is popping through the exhaust it is rich. I can have the air bypass closed and back it out up to 2.5 turns and it makes no difference.

 

I set the tps at 151. It was at 200 when we started. I have balanced the high speed run at 3000 rpm. The only other thing I can think of is the intake valve is too tight. Anyone else have any ideas?

 

It was doing this before we did the balance, but not as bad.

[Dan M]

Couple of thoughts Skip. I always tend to go back to the scene of the crime. If things got worse with your adjustments you may want to go back to what you had before.

That said, you may be on to something with the intake valve idea. If it is tight your symptom will get worse as the motor warms up. If it is only happening on one cylinder, I'd give that a look.

Take a close look at that intake boot for cracks as well.

[Tom M]

Based on my experience with only my bike I say ignore the 150mV baseline, assuming that you don't have an intake leak. When I used that as a starting point there was no way I could get the bike to idle at around 525 mV. Eventually I used the "Micha method" to set my TPS and my bike runs better than ever.

 

The method is:

Step one - Set your valves to world settings

Step two - Set your bleed screws to open 1 full turn

Step three - Synch throttle bodies at just off idle (around 1800 rpm)

Step four - Set idle to 1100 using left idle screw adjuster only

Step five - Set TPS to 3.6 degrees (I forget what that translates to in mv..someone here will know)

Step six - Ensure idle trim is set to zero

 

from this thread:

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...88&hl=Micha

[Karl Von]

I checked the valves and they were at 4 & 6, so I sat them to 6 & 8, I looked at the intake boot and did not see anything wrong. Still poping back through the right side. Going to check the tps again. I am trying to get a base line on this because he is having a power commander installed tomorrow and they are going to make a custom MAP. This bike has never really ran right since he bought it. It has always had a issue of poping back and dying at idle and around 4 grand it looses power till you get above that range. Hopefuly the PC will take care of these probloems. The bike is all stock, it is strange that we are having these issues.

 

 

 

Based on my experience with only my bike I say ignore the 150mV baseline, assuming that you don't have an intake leak. When I used that as a starting point there was no way I could get the bike to idle at around 525 mV. Eventually I used the "Micha method" to set my TPS and my bike runs better than ever.

 

The method is:

Step one - Set your valves to world settings

Step two - Set your bleed screws to open 1 full turn

Step three - Synch throttle bodies at just off idle (around 1800 rpm)

Step four - Set idle to 1100 using left idle screw adjuster only

Step five - Set TPS to 3.6 degrees (I forget what that translates to in mv..someone here will know)

Step six - Ensure idle trim is set to zero

 

from this thread:

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...88&hl=Micha

[Tom M]

I checked the valves and they were at 4 & 6, so I sat them to 6 & 8, I looked at the intake boot and did not see anything wrong. Still poping back through the right side. Going to check the tps again. I am trying to get a base line on this because he is having a power commander installed tomorrow and they are going to make a custom MAP. This bike has never really ran right since he bought it. It has always had a issue of poping back and dying at idle and around 4 grand it looses power till you get above that range. Hopefuly the PC will take care of these probloems. The bike is all stock, it is strange that we are having these issues.

 

I know there are others besides me who couldn't get their V11's running right using the 150mV baseline. In my very limited experience setting the TPS to about 530mV at 1100rpm idle is much more important than the 150mV setting with all the links and stops backed off. It doesn't hurt to try it if the conventional method isn't working for you.

 

Note that the step 6 idle trim adjustment mentioned above must be made with an Axeone tool or VDST software. It might be be a good idea to know what the idle trim is before getting a custom map made. I recall one member here who found that his trim was set to a maximum value which threw off his tuning efforts.

[Karl Von]

I tired the 530mv at 1100 rpm and it would not even try to stay running. This bike is cursed. With only 11,000 miles it had constant vapor lock (now fixed), a snapped rear end pinion shaft (now fixed), now this. I am now thinking it may have a bad ECU or something else. I have tuned a few centauro's and never had this much trouble. I can get it where it will idel great for about 30 sec, then go into a sneezing fit & die.

 

I know there are others besides me who couldn't get their V11's running right using the 150mV baseline. In my very limited experience setting the TPS to about 530mV at 1100rpm idle is much more important than the 150mV setting with all the links and stops backed off. It doesn't hurt to try it if the conventional method isn't working for you.

 

Note that the step 6 idle trim adjustment mentioned above must be made with an Axeone tool or VDST software. It might be be a good idea to know what the idle trim is before getting a custom map made. I recall one member here who found that his trim was set to a maximum value which threw off his tuning efforts.

[Karl Von]

I tired the 530mv at 1100 rpm and it would not even try to stay running. I set the tps back at 150mv with everything disconnected. I have the air screws out one turn and ballanced the throttle bodies with the thumb screws at 1100 rpm and checked it up the scale. It will idle great for about 30 sec then go into a sneezing fit and die. I am almost thinking it may have a bad ECU. My brother has had this bike for 4 years and never rode it much, it only has 11,000 miles. To me it has never run well.

[fotoguzzi]

and around 4 grand it looses power till you get above that range.

that sounds a little like the stumble/cough I had at 4200rpm... I put on a Mistral cross over and it went away completely.

 

Is you air cleaner flowing air or could there be a mouse nest in there?

[Tom M]

I tired the 530mv at 1100 rpm and it would not even try to stay running. This bike is cursed. With only 11,000 miles it had constant vapor lock (now fixed), a snapped rear end pinion shaft (now fixed), now this. I am now thinking it may have a bad ECU or something else. I have tuned a few centauro's and never had this much trouble. I can get it where it will idel great for about 30 sec, then go into a sneezing fit & die.

 

I think the idea of the micha method is to get the TB's adjusted so that the bike idles good at 1100 rpm and THEN set the TPS to 530mV by loosening the torx screws and moving the TPS. I might be mistaken but it sounds like you're trying to achieve the 530mV by turning the idle stop screw.

 

This running fine for 30 seconds then coughing and dying sounds like there might be another problem though. Does it seem like the bike runs fine until it heats up, then it goes lean on one cylinder? My brother had that problem on a dirt bike way back when, and he eventually tracked it to a crack in the cast aluminum intake manifold that was opening up once the bike got warm. If something like that is happening on your brother's bike I would think one of the plugs would look leaner than the other after a brisk ride.

[Karl Von]

that sounds a little like the stumble/cough I had at 4200rpm... I put on a Mistral cross over and it went away completely.

 

Is you air cleaner flowing air or could there be a mouse nest in there?

 

 

The air cleaner is new and the fuel filter was replaced not long ago. When you are running on the road it is ok till you hit around 4500 rpm and it feels like it is bogging down. As soon as you get past it, it will pick up. I messed with it enough so it will idle now for a few mis, then it does the usualy sneezing fit and dies, then fires right back up. I am taking to sarasota fl to Dyno-Tune who is a PC tuner. They do allot of Duck racers. Maybe they can see what is going on whn they hook up and map the pc. I will let everyone know what happens

[fotoguzzi]

the fuel filter is a one way device (on my bike w/external pump) maybe you have the FF in backwards?

that might be too nutty.. ?

[fotoguzzi]

do you have any tank suck? what color are the plugs?

[Skeeve]

I checked the valves and they were at 4 & 6, so I sat them to 6 & 8,

 

I know this is going to sound dumb, but...

 

did you make certain to rotate the engine to the other timing mark when you did the valves? ["D" vs. "S"?]

 

Sorry, nothing more to add than "I hope you didn't do the simple mistake that would be my trademark!"

[Bruce Reader]

In relation to the short term idle that dies then fires right up again i copied this from the tps thread.

 

 

 

G'day everyone.

 

I found this while on the site mentioned below. With people setting up the bike switching on and off to stop bikes overheating between steps- This may help explain differences in initial idle setting and what you find on your first ride down the street.

 

 

www.moto-one.com.au/performance/ducati2vthrottleb.html

 

'One very important thing to know about the 1.5M ECU is that it runs rich for the first 3,000 rotations every time you start the engine after turning the key or kill switch off and then on. I just thought (while typing this) that I don’t know what happens if the engine stalls and you restart it – I’ve never tested that. So best to assume it does it every time.

 

And this is not just when it’s cold. Every time! Even when it’s hot. If you start it up and check the idle mixture quickly and it’s 5% CO after idling for 3 or so minutes (3,000 rotations at 1,100 RPM idle is about 3 minutes) the mixture will drop to maybe 1% CO or so and it’ll idle like crap. I usually allow at least 4 to 5 minutes for the mixture to settle after starting the engine. It’s very annoying when you’re in a hurry, as you have to turn the engine off then back on to initiate the setting procedure with the diagnostic tools, but that’s how it is.

 

Cheers

 

Bruce

[Dan M]

'One very important thing to know about the 1.5M ECU is that it runs rich for the first 3,000 rotations every time you start the engine after turning the key or kill switch off and then on. I just thought (while typing this) that I don’t know what happens if the engine stalls and you restart it – I’ve never tested that. So best to assume it does it every time.

 

And this is not just when it’s cold. Every time! Even when it’s hot. If you start it up and check the idle mixture quickly and it’s 5% CO after idling for 3 or so minutes (3,000 rotations at 1,100 RPM idle is about 3 minutes) the mixture will drop to maybe 1% CO or so and it’ll idle like crap. I usually allow at least 4 to 5 minutes for the mixture to settle after starting the engine. It’s very annoying when you’re in a hurry, as you have to turn the engine off then back on to initiate the setting procedure with the diagnostic tools, but that’s how it is.

 

Cheers

 

Bruce

 

Good catch Bruce and interesting info. I can verify they (at least mine) dump rich on start up. I always thought it was odd and didn't know it was programmed into it for every start. First time on a gas analyzer I thought I had a drippy injector that would load it up after a short shut down.

Perhaps on Skip's bike there is simply too much air bleed at idle or, as suggested before, a vacuum leak.

Skip, have you tried to add fuel to that cylinder to see if it clears up?