V11 Suspension.......Or is it Geometry

[raceboy]

Hey all,

 

After reading and re-reading the posts from the first go-round on this topic, as well as reading other threads and visiting Paul's FastGuzzi site and others; It got me to thinking! (Could be dangerous).

 

I know I'll get some adverse feedback on this but I'm sure others would be interested and hopefully can contribute with useful information. So I'll layout my idea and see what happens.

 

I just recently bought myself CNC Mill, I've also met an aircraft certified welder / fabricator who is willing to play with me and my ideas. At the very worst this will serve two purposes but the third purpose is the target; 1) to put my new mill through its paces, 2) so I can get some practice and 3rd) so the V11 handles better and is more stable when pushed hard. This will not be a quick project probably take me most of the fall season and into the winter months.

 

Ok ready here goes..............

 

To address the problem of the V11 having a short swing-arm and not positioned in the optimum location (the pivot lining up with the U-Joint). I will attempt to remake the 'Pork Chops' with the pivot point relocated and to also encompass more adjustability in foot pegs and controls. Of course to go along with this I will need to make a new swing-arm rather than modifying the OEM steel swing-arm. I'm hoping as a positive side affect I will also loose some weight in the process... (may also give an opportunity to relocate battery, lower).

 

As a starting point I will use Paul M measurements; adding 60 mm to swing-arm length, moving swing-arm pivot 70 mm forward, and also moving the pivot point down to line up with the shaft U-joint (I don't know what that measurement is at this time). The stock shock location / position / dimensions will not be altered at this time. I'm using the Ohlins dimensions of 286 mm eye to eye length.

 

Now, during this excessive exercise NO original V11 parts will altered, cut, reworked or otherwise mangled in any way by my hand; so if it all goes to CRAP I can put it all back together in original configuration. But if it seems to be working out I will proceed and alter the front steering head to 24 or 25 degrees from the original 26 degrees on my long frame V11.

 

The material to be used will be aluminum, and the grade(s) will be 6061 for the pork chops and 7075 for the swing-arm. I will attempt to make the swing-arm with as few welds as possible.... I know more wastage but should provide more strength.

 

Any ideas, suggestions, comments, advice, help, pictures, etc on any or all aspects of this project would be greatly appreciated, of course collaboration would be most welcome.

 

Raceboy

[gstallons]

Good luck and keep us posted.

Do the lwb bikes have the swingarm pivots rearward like you are going to do?

[Guest ratchethack]

This will not be a quick project probably take me most of the fall season and into the winter months.

 

. . .excessive exercise. . .

RB, once again I applaud the effort. Sounds like fun.

 

Regardless of the actual time-$ink involved, looks to me like you suffer few illusions about wot you're getting into.

 

By way of counterpoint, coupla observations (just in case):

 

You won't be able to materially overcome the primary shortcoming of the OE short swingarm by lengthening it 60, 70, or even 80 mm, unless you also want to increase the wheelbase well out into heavy handling tradeoff territory. Keeping the wheelbase short enough for decent handling, the swingarm will STILL be at least somewhere around 100 mm short of chain-driven swingarms, with all the same inherent shortcomings of the OE short, relatively primitive, non-bellcrank-linked swingarm, only to a somewhat lesser degree. This, of course, is the tradeoff that the Luigi's figured wasn't worth the re-tooling costs after going from the 5-speed to the shorter 6-speed box, which afforded the perfect opportunity (some have said by plan) to relocate the pivot and make a longer swingarm, yet they decided to skip it altogether.

 

But that's^ really not all that much of an irrecoverable shortcoming when you consider that next, even with $uper ultra-lite component$, you can only reduce the unsprung swingarm assembly from approx. 50 lbs down to maybe somewhere near 45 lbs. This (again) is STILL a relatively great whallopping hefty unsprung rear weight, with all the same inherent drawbacks of the OE chassis, only to a very slightly less degree, relative to chain-drivers.

 

The GOOD NEWS is that because you really can't "fix" either of the TWO, it sorta draws most o' the focus off "fixing" either one.

 

But you probably fully understood all that^.

 

Again, gotta admire the effort. Carry on!

[raceboy]

Good luck and keep us posted.

Do the lwb bikes have the swingarm pivots rearward like you are going to do?

 

 

lwb??????

 

RB

[Guest ratchethack]

Do the lwb bikes have the swingarm pivots rearward like you are going to do?

Gene, RB is moving the swingarm pivot forward, like Paul did. The only difference between SWB and LWB chassis is the ANGLE of the steering-head relative to the spine. The frames are the same length, and swingarms, etc. are dimensionally identical.

[raceboy]

Gene, RB is moving the swingarm pivot forward, like Paul did. The only difference between the SWB and LWB bikes is the ANGLE of the steering-head relative to the spine. The frames are the same length, and swingarms, etc. are dimensionally identical.

 

 

Ah yes silly me swb = short wheelbase, lwb = long wheelbase.

 

Thanks RH, well if nothing else just have some fun cutting up aluminum and make up shiny bits also give'm something yap about at the local Guzzi rally here in the Great White North. But true can only go so far with the V11 which is still miles behind the 'Current State Of The Motorcycle Art'. On the other hand I'll be ready for Vintage racing when the V11 comes of age..

 

 

Raceboy

[gstallons]

Do you have enough balls to make a single side swingarm? I wonder if you can adapt a CARC rear end?

 

I hope so!

[raceboy]

Do you have enough balls to make a single side swingarm? I wonder if you can adapt a CARC rear end?

 

I hope so!

 

 

Hey G, I'll give it a shot if you provide me with a wheel and CARC setup.

 

 

Raceboy

[Paul Minnaert]

You can have my drawing for the pivots.

 

well for Carc, you will need the gearbox too, has been done in Rome.

 

 

@ratchethack:

The only difference between SWB and LWB chassis is the ANGLE of the steering-head relative to the spine. The frames are the same length, and swingarms, etc. are dimensionally identical.

 

no the angle is the same, only the lenghtend the frame just behind the steerding head.

[Guest ratchethack]

@ratchethack:

 

no the angle is the same, only the lenghtend the frame just behind the steerding head.

Paul, I was comparing SWB & LWB V11's, not Daytona.

 

The V11's are SWB = 25 degree rake, LWB = 26 degree rake, same length frame.

 

At least that was the conclusion from carefully measuring one against the other in my driveway.

[raceboy]

You can have my drawing for the pivots.

 

Paul thanks I would like to have a look at the drawings you have, not only for the pivots but also for the yokes you had made.

 

RB

[richard100t]

I'm wondering how hard it would be to scrap the shaft drive altogether & go with a chain drive? That would drop probably 25lbs right there.

[Guest ratchethack]

I'm wondering how hard it would be to scrap the shaft drive altogether & go with a chain drive? That would drop probably 25lbs right there.

Hm. It's been done on racing tonti's, but never caught on. Seems that turning the crank output 90 degrees onto a countershaft and sprocket still requires a heavy bevel drive, so there's the dual advantages of removing the weight from the wheel hub, getting it forward and suspending it. But not likely much of any overall weight savings. You've got to find a way to shoehorn that bevel drive into a fairly complex (and LARGE) custom gearbox -- and then there's a chain to deal with. . .

 

After the care and feeding of 11 chain-drivers, (one of which I still have to complain about) I gotta say I don't miss a chain on the V11.

 

But o' course, that's just me.

[raceboy]

A big, hard SHAFT is one of the reasons why I like the Guzzi....

 

Like the old saying goes....... "It's Hard To Be Humble With A Shaft Like Mine" or something like that.

 

Cheers,

RB

[mille108]