V11 Suspension.......Or is it Geometry

[Greg Field]

Where these bikes in "Police Dress" already? With lights and horn and so?

 

I understand wobbling to be caused by matching or nonmatching (as you like to see it) resonance frequencies of front and rear part of the bike. Front means wheel, fender, fork, everything beeing part of the steering, rear is the rest of the bike.

Then what can be so different from one bike to the next, from the same type, the same line, roughly the same date, same tires etc., that one easily runs into the critical area of resonance and the other one doesn't - is in fact far away from it? The more as both bikes are set up identically.

I personally find it very hard to believe, but be it as it is.

 

Hubert

 

Yes, what they found was that out of a given batch of identically outfitted (same windshield, same bags, same siren, same lights, etc.) bikes, some would wobble, no matter what they tried for set-up and no matter who was the rider. There were instances of LeMans 1000s on which this was observed, too. I cannot remember if anyone was actually killed on the early LeMans 1000 because of a wobble, but there were several horrendous crashes from it. Sometimes a design is close to the edge such that most individual bikes are to the safe side but some fall just over the line to the unsafe side. IMO, this was the case for the US police Eldos and the early LeMans 1000. It is likely the case for the red-frame V11 Sports, too.

[Guest ratchethack]

It is likely the case for the red-frame V11 Sports, too.

Hmmm. "Likely the case"? Exactly HOW LIKELY?? Lemme see if I've got this straight.

 

It's a 30 year stretch from a '69 Ambo loop cop bike to a '99 Sport spiney, and another stretch of wot -- ~45 bhp, with suspension components, tires, wheels, fork, geometry, chassis, heavy police accessories, including barn door flyscreen not remotely in the same ballpark between the two?!

 

Now it takes one great wallopping helluva set o' stretches to draw an equivalence here, Greg.

 

It's a lot like claiming that Ralph Nader's infamous and dubiously documented "folding" rear suspension of early '60's Chevy Corvairs (see his '65 book, Unsafe at any Speed) means that early '90's Chevy Corvettes suffer the same imaginary catastrophic failure. I doubt if Ralphie hisself would even attempt to sell that one. . .

 

Come on, Greg. If you were to actually attempt to shoehorn some kind of an inference out o' this into a very long, mighty thin, and heavily contorted connection, the implication being that some (but not all, and no way to tell the difference) short frame V11s can spontaneously crash and KILL PEOPLE, and if you were to put this in print in your next edition of Big Twins, I reckon you'd lose lots of readers on sheer lack of crediblity. You've already lost everyone here who's actually extensively ridden a short frame Sport or RM that's known to've been properly set up, and has thereby well demonstrated their consistent stability over every imaginable speed, lean angle, and road condition over nearly a decade (myself included). . .

 

You obviously can't conceive of any reason wotsoever for your alleged "extremely twitchy" paranormal phenomena. But lacking ANY credible explanation, if you're apt to continue promoting UNEXPLAINED "LIKELY" DEADLY EXTREMELY TWITCHY PHENOMENA, you might as well at least put a face on it, and stick with the Great Horned Extremely Twitchy Demon haunting theory, and print that. . .

 

Finding this kind of baseless allegation in print is the stuff that corporate litigation teams' dreams are made of. . .

[GuzziMoto]

Yes, what they found was that out of a given batch of identically outfitted (same windshield, same bags, same siren, same lights, etc.) bikes, some would wobble, no matter what they tried for set-up and no matter who was the rider. There were instances of LeMans 1000s on which this was observed, too. I cannot remember if anyone was actually killed on the early LeMans 1000 because of a wobble, but there were several horrendous crashes from it. Sometimes a design is close to the edge such that most individual bikes are to the safe side but some fall just over the line to the unsafe side. IMO, this was the case for the US police Eldos and the early LeMans 1000. It is likely the case for the red-frame V11 Sports, too.

Personally Greg, I don't discount the idea that some red frame V11s wobble. I have no reason to doubt you. But if you are making an assumption that they wobble because of the steering geometry (that they share with the majority of red frame V11s that don't wobble) then there I have to disagree. We may have different definitions of "wobble", but whatever your definition is if it is a trait that is not shared by the rest of them then it must be caused by something that is also not shared.

Even red frame V11s are no where near the "edge" of the geometry envelope.

[belfastguzzi]

Just for a bit of diversion, if not relief...

Many will remember the Pan European problems from a couple of years ago. It's been mentioned here before, I think.

 

Same sort of situation. Main problem was highlighted though the Police bike wobbles. There were crashes, then a Police rider was killed.

However civi riders on standard spec machines also complained of same dangerous wobbles, while others proclaimed the machines as rock steady!

 

 

"After a coroner in the UK stated that the Honda Pan European ST1300 used by the UK Police Officers was unsafe at high speeds, the Association of Chief Police Officers in the UK withdrew the motorcycle. This happened after a Police Officer (David Shreeve) lost control of his motorcycle after developing a violent high-speed wobble resulting his death. There is no problem with standard Honda Pan European motorcycles, just the Police version, due to the heavy equipment transported (communication and emergency materials), and the different suspension used."

 

Owner A > "How much of this is accurate and how much is sensationalism, negative journalism or sour grapes. I am sorry for PC Shreeve and his family but he was doing 110 mph plus on a fully laden Pan on the M58 which has very open and windy sections. The ST 1300 handbook advises no more than 80 mph with panniers.Is the police withdrawal of these bikes backside covering in case another accident happens and the police are left open to compensation claims? I ride my ST 1300 all year every day for work as well as weekend runs. My daily commute takes me close to the accident site so I can confirm it is windy. The only time I have experienced any hint of instability is when the Honda top box is fitted, and I've been riding solo, and possibly a little too fast for the conditions. Even then I would not say it was serious. So, I'm confused - my bike seems perfectly stable under any reasonable conditions, but we hear these reports. Is it really only the police bike which is affected, or am I riding a potential death trap which is going to bite me one day. As stevenrees says, we need an answer from Honda"

 

Owner B > "Guess I was one of the first victims of the high speed wobble (Feb 04)- totalling the bike and putting me in hospital. 50+ year old, riding since 16, I.A.M. Green badge, Police trained, I know how to ride and I know a bad bike when I come accross it. I'll keep campaigning for Honda to be brought to task - for there are few nights I go to bed without thinking of the kids being brought up without a Dad because Dave Hancock and crew at Honda wouldn't take heed of my experience/correspondance then. Funny how the media seem reluctant to persue the issue - no more free bikes/weekends away at stake? Loved my ST100 - the STX1300 is a killer - and despite reports of Police returning hundreds, Honda are still seling them. Police vs Civvie spec - mine was loaded with change of clothes in top box, computer in ns box & recovery kit in rh box, probably up to Police spec weight. Guys are dying on these machines because of 'rider error' - they rode one.RIP"

 

Owner C > "I have had mine for two years and 7900 miles, 2500 in France last year, two up and overloaded in weight with just the passenger and rider, yes the all three boxes were full and the tank bag too. (?240kgs..me and the lad are 200 between us). Pre-loaded to the MAX!! Mine has been rock steady even flat out, It has Bridgestone 020's and at 42 psi. I too am IAM trained and am studying to be paramedic with Yorkshire Ambulance Service. Not that means much but D1 and D2 driver training alters your perdpective on hazzards. I am happy with mine, I waisted 70quid buying a brace off ebay 'cos I was scared of the hype (when I returned). Should have saved my cash. I think I must ride like a nonce but St Tropez to home 1066 miles in 14 hours is not hanging about in anyones book. Try before you buy. I did and it's fabulous. Fit the correct rated tyres and just ride it. Screen up or down fast or slow, ring it,s neck and it will keep comming back. I am acutely aware that the cop bikes are different but civii ones are ok. I might be the only one saying it's ok, but that's all that matters. I had my RF9 for 12 years, 55,000 miles and I suspect the Pan will stay a while too and I also suspect everyone else THINK they ride Hard but actually they don't. The Police on the other hand DO. In all weathers. Brave, and right decision to remove the machine from their fleets. Folk have a bump, and like todays society have to find someone to blame, in this case.... "of course it was the machine ... no,no... not me , I am traind and never make a mistake , me.... welll I am perfect am I not? I have a little piece of paper telling me I am!" It means there are some absolute bargins to be had because people are so afraid of them. Any one shrude enough not to believe the hype can have themselves an masterpiece of Honda engineering. I feel for the PC in the crash and his family. It was a police bike ot a civi. So again.... try before you buy!"

 

Owner D > "I have had mine back to to honda and they said its fine i went back out this weekend one day and it weaved badly again look Honda ive had a lot of bikes and this is a problem you must fix my bike has cover only 700 miles and i now hate to ride it..."

 

etc etc

[Greg Field]

Ratch:

 

The point is and always has been this: Every other time Guzzi has made changes like they did on the Sport, it wasn't because some journalist said the bike was twitchy. It was because someone died or was seriously injured. And they only did it after the problem was denied and finally proven to them by the spilling of blood. Of course the Eldo is unlike the Sport. Was Guzzi's reason for changing the geometry the same as for the Eldo? I bet a little investigation would show that it is. You can believe as you like, but do not pretend that what I know on this subject is in any way inferior to what you know on this subject. Shove your derision all the way up your ass.

 

I never said the geometry was near the edge. As delivered, they are far from stable. That all of you have to spend so much time setting them up to prevent this is, I believe, a concession of this point. Add in production variation, and you get a certain number of dangerous machines.

[GuzziMoto]

I never said the geometry was near the edge. As delivered, they are far from stable. That all of you have to spend so much time setting them up to prevent this is, I believe, a concession of this point. Add in production variation, and you get a certain number of dangerous machines.

Yes, some have spent considerable effort fine tuning their V11's. My wife and I have not however. The bike has been dead stable from day one. The only times it has not been stable was when the rear wheel bearings took a dump and when the steering damper (a somewhat common problem) took a dump. The steering damper in particular had a pronounced effect on the bike. It was scary to ride. Removed the dampener and the problem was solved. 30 some thousand miles later the bad dampener is still sitting in my tool box and the bikes works great without one. Might get a new one someday, but no rush. After about 20k miles I altered the dampening characteristics of the forks so that it actually has compression dampening (stock it did not). This had little to do with any weaving or wobbling issue but helped the comfort of the ride quite a bit. The bike has a Penske shock now but that is only because the stocker cracked at the lower eye after 30+ thousand miles. I have not found the bike to be any different then any other bike I have owned in terms of setting it up. So, the bike has been stable from day one and continues to be stable after more then 40,000 miles. If someone has a V11, red frame or not, and it is unstable then there is something wrong with it. I could see someone getting off a later LWB V11 (or a Griso or tonti frame bike) and on to a short frame one and being intimidated by how much quicker it steers, but that does not mean the bike is unstable. If it is then something is wrong with it. It could be anything from condition of the bike to how it is loaded or ridden. And it can happen to any bike, not just V11's. Any two wheeled vehicule can wobble. Bikes with aggressive geometry are more prone to this then others. The V11 series, red frame or not, do not fall into that catagory. That does not mean they won't wobble, just that they are not as likely to do it as some other bikes. Kick a dog and it might bite you, that does not mean that all dogs will bite you.

[Greg Field]

A Tuono steers far more quickly than any stock V11 Sport. It doesn't feel unstable. You'll have to trust, or not, that I can tell the difference between quick steering and instability.

[Dan M]

A Tuono steers far more quickly than any stock V11 Sport. It doesn't feel unstable. You'll have to trust, or not, that I can tell the difference between quick steering and instability.

 

The Tuono is indeed very quick steering however there is a long sweeping turn that I take regularly on the V11 between 95 & 100mph. It feels like it is on the proverbial rails. Over the same stretch of road at speed on the Tuono I have to constantly correct my line. Never a wobble on either but the quick steering of the T makes it feel less planted.

[luhbo]

...

The point is and always has been this: Every other time Guzzi has made changes like they did on the Sport, it wasn't because some journalist said the bike was twitchy. It was because someone died or was seriously injured. And they only did it after the problem was denied and finally proven to them by the spilling of blood. Of course the Eldo is unlike the Sport. Was Guzzi's reason for changing the geometry the same as for the Eldo? I bet a little investigation would show that it is. You can believe as you like, but do not pretend that what I know on this subject is in any way inferior to what you know on this subject....

 

I never said the geometry was near the edge. As delivered, they are far from stable. That all of you have to spend so much time setting them up to prevent this is, I believe, a concession of this point. Add in production variation, and you get a certain number of dangerous machines.

 

You really have balls, man! Under your balls every bike must be wobbly.

 

Hubert

[luhbo]

....Never a wobble on either but the quick steering of the T makes it feel less planted.

 

You guys definitely should come to an agreement what you mean with "a wobble" or "wobbly" etc. If you'd have the same idea of what "a whobble" was as Greg, then you'd not expect it to show up in a long bend.

 

Greg is probably trying to sell this as "wobbling Red Frames", what I think might be a little overstressed.

 

Wobbling Racer

 

BTW: if you watch the mirror or what it is rolling over the street after the bike had wobbled it off then this scene somehow has a bit of Looney Tunes

 

Hubert

[GuzziMoto]

A Tuono steers far more quickly than any stock V11 Sport. It doesn't feel unstable. You'll have to trust, or not, that I can tell the difference between quick steering and instability.

I am more then happy to trust that you know the difference. It is possible that we are using different definitions of the term "wobble", but I think we are on the same page. I am not saying that some V11's don't wobble. But if a V11 does wobble it is because something is wrong. It could be anything from bad bearings to bad steering damper to bad riding (not you personally), but there is something about a V11 that wobbles that is different from the many that don't. Maybe it is a frame that is not straight or a loose or broken engine mount but it is something. The fact that you or even Guzzi has not figured out what it is does not mean that the problem is not there. It just means the problem has not been found. It could be as simple as poor manufacturing tolerances, but I like to think that is not the case. I have seen Japanese bikes that when brand new had the front wheel out of line with the rear wheel by 1/4" or more. It is entirely conceivable that Guzzi is worse then that. But that is not the design of the bikes fault. The red frame Guzzis are my favorite handling Guzzi because of how sharp they are. I don't think they are the perfect Guzzi for everybody, but they are the perfect Guzzi for me. My Griso is cool, but my wifes red frame Guzzi is a much sharper tool. The Griso is fast, but it lacks the quick steering and feedback. It is numb in comparison.

[Skeeve]

FWIW, for comparison purposes, the Guzzi V11 LMs have a 26 degree rake, short-frame Sport and RMs have a 25 degree rake, the MGS-01 has a 23.5 degree rake, and the Duc Classic has a 23 degree rake.

 

From the "FWIW" file: GMD Computrak has a set of #s that they refer to as the "sweet spot." IIRC, it's something like 25deg rake and 4" trail, but you can probably go to the GMD website & find them. I just remember learning about this shortly after I'd gotten my SV650, & realizing that they closely paralleled the SV's numbers [which probably has something to do w/ the continued popularity of that particular model. Maybe. I'm just sayin'... ]

 

Given that the spine frame is a design that depends upon the engine as a stressed member, what likelihood is there that the "twitchy" short frames encountered didn't have all their bolts torqued properly or had vibrated loose somewhat, so that the source of the "wobble" was in fact, a flexible frame?

[greenman]

sigh...

just send all your sport 1100s or V11s over to New Zealand, and we will test them for you.

DD

[Dan M]

You guys definitely should come to an agreement what you mean with "a wobble" or "wobbly" etc. If you'd have the same idea of what "a whobble" was as Greg, then you'd not expect it to show up in a long bend.

 

 

Hubert

 

Who expected it? How do you translate "never a wobble" into expecting a wobble?

 

Looks like this thread is wobbling hopelessly out of control. I guess as long as no deaths can be attributed to the dangerous thread it won't be closed.

[belfastguzzi]

....Looks like this thread is wobbling hopelessly out of control. I guess as long as no deaths can be attributed to the dangerous thread it won't be closed.

I blame the Forum geometry