Q: Who “Needs” a Steering Damper?

[Greg Field]

Again I note dryly how terrified all the riders (save Guzzimoto) of "stable" red frames are of riding without a steering damper. Those who have eyes to see will see the irony in this. The rest will look foolish to those with eyes to see. Or, they'll realize that the reason they're terrified to ride without a damper is because those bikes aren't all that stable. And the "proper" set up espoused by some here makes the bikes even less stable. Heretical, yes, but look at your own fear of your own bikes to see the proof.

[mdude]

ah, the stable red frame he said dryly.......

i've had a slapper that broke my thumb, braking at an angle at low speed. all "moments" I've had with this bike has been at low speed when I gave more steering or braking input than it could handle. I rode without the bloody steering damper for months without noticing its absence, then turned it up a few notches and didnt really feel any difference. It still lives beneath me, wriggling a bit on cambers, trying to get away when braking into streetcorners. One has to ride around that quirk. If you hustle it it will bite you, steering damper or not. I dont think its "twitchy".

Call it unstability or shite weight distribution if you want but its still low and heavy and freighttrain-like at speed. Its not really made for wheelies, streetraces and stoppies is it? You got other bikes for that kind of exhibitionism.

Im really surprised at the amount of riders in such discussions that firmly believe that the Goose is a thoroughbred red hot superbike capable of killing R1s and 999s at sight.

Well you can be really fast on anything as long as you have an extra can of guts with you. My fastest mate rides a beatup Kawa W650. I have NO idea how he manages to ride that poor thing as fast as he does.

My wifes Laverda, which has a shorter wheelbase than a Honda NSR 125 is the most quicksteering bike Ive tried. It has no steering damper and can be thrown around like a pushbike on streetcorners. No moments whatsoever on that one. Its easier to drive fast, its easier to drive slowly. Its just better constructed than the Guzzi.

 

This might not make sense, but its written in Norway.

[Slavomir Musilek (R.I.P.)]

Im really surprised at the amount of riders in such discussions that firmly believe that the Goose is a thoroughbred red hot superbike capable of killing R1s and 999s at sight.

 

 

there is a difference between killing at sight and trying to stay at sight

[Guest ratchethack]

. . .I figure it’s an optimum time to flush out the rest o’ the Luddites and dabblers in the occult and paranormal on this one – get ‘em all out in the open, so to speak, where they can expose the mindset that drives crash statistics far beyond where experience, knowlege, and the exercise of plain common sense would otherwise take the numbers. I expect some of the responses to this post will do just that.

Mission accomplished:

Again I note dryly how terrified all the riders (save Guzzimoto) of "stable" red frames are of riding without a steering damper. Those who have eyes to see will see the irony in this. The rest will look foolish to those with eyes to see. Or, they'll realize that the reason they're terrified to ride without a damper is because those bikes aren't all that stable. And the "proper" set up espoused by some here makes the bikes even less stable. Heretical, yes, but look at your own fear of your own bikes to see the proof.

This is all so confusing -- but so very informative!

 

I was pretty sure this thread would be enlightening from the get-go, and I certainly haven't been disappointed! Just look at wot's been flushed out o' deep cover here so far!

 

We've learned so very much here already, and so many new opportunities to push back the frontiers of ignorance opening up on all sides!

 

Now lemme see if I've got all this straight. Here's a little summary of wot we've learned in this thread (and recently elsewhere):

 

Some (but not all!) short Frame (25 degree rake) Guzzis are extremely twitchy, and have left a (wholly unsubstantiated) trail of human carnage behind them. Serious injury, and even the suggestion of multiple deaths have been alleged, without bodies and without evidence. There is no explanation for this phenomenon. It's beyond physics, beyond mechanics, beyond the credible historical record of the last decade, and in all ways beyond comprehension by mere mortals. Therefore they are truly haunted, and demon possession is the only plausible explanation. Old Wive's Tales abound, and are repeated with no regard to evidence or historical or facts. There is no earthly explanation for why the Extremely Twitchy Demon prefers haunting one short frame over the next, and no earthly way to tell the difference unless or until one actually experiences a demonic attack.

 

We've learned that Quazimodo and his wife are afraid of steering dampers. Evidently, they never use them regularly as intended -- never have, and never will. His wife rides an "Extremely Twitchy" short frame model without a steering damper, and they both (I think?) compete in parking lots this way without a "problem" of any kind. Their short frame Guzzi is evidently not one of the haunted ones, and is immune from, or has been protected from potential demonic attack by powerful Voodoo. Their riding behavior has been acknowledged as something resembling courage.

 

Those who actually ride Guzzi's on the road, where they were designed and built to be ridden, are generally unafraid of riding safely, anywhere, under most any normal conditions at any time -- and for good reason, based on the true record of the Guzzi's legendary stability! -- but those of us silly enough to actually ride our Guzzis on the road AND actually use the steering damper (again, as designed and intended) are AFRAID of their Guzzis.

 

Properly setting up their suspension makes the Extremely Twitchy short frame (25 degree rake) Guzzi's less stable. Being the owner and rider of a short frame Guzzi for over 6 years now, this was a real puzzler. It would seem that conversely, an improperly set up suspension on a short frame would be more stable, and therefore more safe. . . Yet it's exactly the opposite with all other Guzzi's, proper suspension setup making them more stable and more safe. . .

 

Long frame (26 degree rake) Guzzis can (and do) ALSO suffer from attacks by the Extremely Twitchy Red Frame Demon. Likewise, there is no earthly explanation for why the Extremely Twitchy Demon prefers one long frame Guzzi over the next -- nor, apparently, one of the demon-susceptible short frames to a demon-susceptible long frame.

 

Those who would be foolish enough to actually adjust a factory installed steering damper whilst underway, according to speed and road conditions (as designed and intended) have lost their minds, and are apparently a danger to themselves and others.

 

Much o' this^ is still pretty baffling to Yours Truly, and I do struggle so hard with some o' this. . . but I'm sincerely trying my very best. . .

 

Hm. Voodoo has obviously been running rampant here. Now my understanding of Voodoo culture is that it's an ancient primitive belief system based primarily on catering to, and manipulating the most powerful core emotion of homo sapiens, that being FEAR. States of emotional hysteria are encouraged by the ingestion of a variety of semi-toxic substances, including certain herbal alkaloids, some powerful enough to induce the greatly feared and dreaded (yet deeply respected) zombie state, by which unfortunate victims of Voodoo are maintained in a permanent physical and mental twilight world somewhere between life and death -- aka, THE UNDEAD. Voodoo magic is unleashed from the spirit world, and can be brought to bear upon whatever is desired to be accomplished. Logic, rational thinking, and common sense have always been unwelcome transgressors in Voodoo culture. DEMON EXORCISM is a serious business in Voodoo culture -- and you better believe it. . . The consequences of publicly voicing heresy can be fatal.

 

Now I've just gotta ask: Is the FEAR of riding without using a steering damper as intended the same kind of FEAR of riding without tires properly inflated as intended, for example? Is this the same kind of of FEAR of not having one's suspension correctly set up as intended, and thereby winding up embedded in a tree as a result? If I de-tune my suspension by throwing spring rates and sags out o' whack, will my Guzzi magically become more stable??

 

I'm afraid I don't yet quite fully understand the CULTURE OF FEAR all that well. However, unlike certain self-identified others hereabouts, I'm always more than ready and willing to learn. Leave us by all means delve more deeply into this! Onward!

 

Somebody please perform a ritual chant or two, smear something really repugnant on your head, drink lots of rum, sacrifice a goat or a chicken on a Voodoo Bizango Iwa altar, drink the blood and splatter it all over yourself, chant some chants, scream some screams by the light of the full moon, conjure up some more powerful ju-ju, and remove the blindness that clouds our understanding here!

 

 

Madame Gatore Grosse Bayou

works herself up to let fly another

Great Wallopping demon exorcism

 

"O great, fearsome, and all-powerful Jabu, give us the all-seeing eyes of your spirit, that we may all truly see.". . .

[Greg Field]

"They're coming to take you away, Ratch; they're coming to take you away . . ."

[GuzziMoto]

I know this is a waste of time, but today I got time to waste.

 

Now lemme see if I've got all this straight.

 

We've learned that Quazimodo and his wife are afraid of steering dampers. Evidently, they never use them regularly as intended -- never have, and never will. His wife rides an "Extremely Twitchy" short frame model without a steering damper, and they both (I think?) compete in parking lots this way without a "problem" of any kind. This behavior has been acknowledged as something resembling courage.

So, Hatchet Rack has determined that my wife and I are "afraid of steering dampers" even though I have never stated that and in fact I have said that if you want to run a steering damper then run one, if you don't need it then take it off. I don't care one way or the other, it is a matter of personal preference (and how well you have your bike set up and maintained). I have ridden and raced many bikes. Some of them have had steering dampers and some haven't, I don't recall ever being "afraid" of the ones with.

My wife and I no longer get to compete in parking lot racing as they no longer run the series we competed in. But since you appear to have no idea what parking lot racing is or was about you really shouldn't comment on it as you tend to look stupid to those who actually have a clue, kinda like the whole upgrading your brake master cylinder thing that you had never done but knew was a bad thing.

With out parking lot racing anymore I still get to race Super Moto and my wife has done track days. I hope to road race some more in the near future but even if I don't get to I have in the past won more races then I can count and along the way have a few regional and national championships to my credit with CCS and AHRMA. I'm sure you have equally impressive credentials as you seem to be such an expert.

Let me try to help your expert understanding of this one more time.

My wifes V11 came with a steering damper. My Griso did not. The one on the V11 went bad and caused a handling problem at about 10k miles and was removed. 30k miles later it is working fine with out one and my wife (and I) prefers the way the bike handles without it. The steering is lighter and the bike gives you more feed back as to what the front end is doing. This does not mean that everybody should remove their steer dampers from their V11s but on the other hand if you would like to (even just to see what it is like) then by all means take the damper off. The geometry of the bike is pretty middle of the road and can be ridden without one if you so choose. My griso (which has a longer wheelbase then a V11 but otherwise has rake and trail much like the later V11s) did not come with a steering damper and works just fine without one.

And as a final note, While some bikes do have viscous steering dampers (not sure why you feel compelled to differentiate, I don't think anyone makes any other kinds anymore) that can be adjusted "on the fly", that does not mean all of them can be. And some of them cannot be adjusted at all. But your notion that the "correct" way to use a steering damper is the way you do is arrogant and moronic. There is no "correct" way to use one that implies that all the other ways are wrong. Using it in whatever manner you see fit as long as it doesn't result in you laying on the pavement is correct.

While I don't subscribe to the theory that red frame V11s are inherently unstable, I am curious why such a well setup bike such as yours needs one so badly. Even Ed, the guy with actual credentials to his name to back up an opinion says that Guzzis are on average stable. What is the story?

[Guest ratchethack]

Thanks to Greg for introducing the important concept of FEAR to this discussion.

 

Or as he put it, TERROR.

 

Hadn't really given it much thought before, but now I really think we're on to something here!

 

Wot discussion of THE PARANORMAL and THE UNEXPLAINED would be complete without at least a practical consideration of THE NATURE OF FEAR?? These concepts are truly hand-in-glove, are they not?

 

After all, (again) FEAR is the most powerful (and most easily exploited) human emotion. Properly wielded as a tool, it can cut through rational thinking, logic and common sense like the proverbial hot machete through butter -- exactly as appears to've happened right here in this thread. . .

 

Leave us further explore the concept through the enlightenment of Swami Sivananda Saraswati:

 

The Nature of Fear

From the teachings of Swami Sivananda Saraswati

 

Fear is universal. It is an instinct common to everyone. Fear can come at any time. Fear is an emotion excited by threatening evil or impending pain, accompanied by a desire to avoid or escape it and to provide for one's security. There are various degrees of fear. They are simple fright, timidity, shyness, alarm, terror and terrible fear, hear assumes various forms. Some are afraid of ghosts. Some are afraid of diseases. The vast majority of people are afraid of public criticism.

 

Normal fear and imaginary fear

 

Fear is of two kinds, normal and imaginary.

 

Normal fear is only five percent, whereas imaginary fear is ninety percent. Normal fear is healthy. It paves the way for progress. It preserves life. A headmaster is afraid of the school inspector. He takes a keen interest in training his students. All are successful in their examinations. A railway engine driver is afraid of his superior officer. He is very careful in the discharge of his duties. No collision occurs. A physician is afraid of getting a bad reputation. He takes great care of his patients.

 

Imaginary fears cause disease, deplete the energies and produce all sorts of feverish excitement, low vitality, uneasiness, discomfort and disharmony. When there is an epidemic, people worry and imagine that the germs have entered their body. Imagination plays serious havoc. They become a victim of the actual disease itself! Some develop a fear that they will lose their job. Some fear, "What can I do if my business fails?" A student prepares day and night for an examination. He has passed creditably in all the class examinations, but he develops a kind of imaginary fear - examination fear - as soon as he enters the examination hall, becomes nervous and gets confused. His hands tremble. He is not able to write. He fails in the examination. There is no end to such imaginary fears.

Yes indeed. No doubt about it. Some hereabouts are clearly afraid of demons, as well as public criticism. These would be NORMAL FEARS, according to Swami Saraswati. But I do b'lieve it must be the worst, most devastating fear of all -- AN IMAGINARY FEAR -- FEAR OF THE UNKNOWN that's been rampaging hither and anon at full gallop behind the scenes as it were, and is now successfully identified, ferreted out, and fully exposed in this here thread. . . And it seems quite pervasive, too. . .

[Dan M]

I know this is a waste of time, but today I got time to waste.

 

.....I have in the past won more races then I can count and along the way have a few regional and national championships to my credit with CCS and AHRMA. I'm sure you have equally impressive credentials.....

 

Not to hijack this debate.

What / when did you race in AHRMA? Do you know Bob Goodpastor?

[Greg Field]

I'm beginning to suspect that Ratch is just another of Capt Nemo/Enzo's noms de web.

[belfastguzzi]

I'm beginning to suspect that Ratch is just another of Capt Nemo/Enzo's noms de web.

Did Enzo fiddle with his fly while on the bike too?

 

Well, I can guess the answer.

[GuzziMoto]

Not to hijack this debate.

What / when did you race in AHRMA? Do you know Bob Goodpastor?

 

The name rings a bell, but I don't remember him. I am bad with people and names.

Back in '94 and '95. I raced a Ducati (Gotham Racing) in Battle of the Twins F2 and was national champion in that class both years. I met a lot of great people doing that and still remember/talk to some of them. I am disappointed that I have a race (SuperMoto) that will keep me from Barbers this October for the race there. I wanted to go watch but as I am battling for a local title I feel compelled to race. I keep telling myself it is no longer about winning but about fun, but as I say "winning is the most fun".

[docc]

Greg Field said:

I'm beginning to suspect that Ratch is just another of Capt Nemo/Enzo's noms de web.

 

Interesting observation! I had been thinking this thread really rings of the old "Fun with Threads" approach to the forum.

 

It ain't all bad, really. As long as we can each show some personal restraint and join the fray for what it is.

 

I certainly believe that riding, especially riding hard, is an emotional state. Why else would it be so captivating?

 

"Skeered?" Naw, I ain't skeered. Yet, I don't want her to bite me again. I want to get so close that she might think she can; almost taste it. It's about the control, the choice. But, in the end, what good is control if you don't let her get close. Even dangerously close.

 

[gavo]

Thanks to Greg for introducing the important concept of FEAR to this discussion.

 

Or as he put it, TERROR.

 

Hadn't really given it much thought before, but now I really think we're on to something here!

 

Wot discussion of THE PARANORMAL and THE UNEXPLAINED would be complete without at least a practical consideration of THE NATURE OF FEAR?? These concepts are truly hand-in-glove, are they not?

 

After all, (again) FEAR is the most powerful (and most easily exploited) human emotion. Properly wielded as a tool, it can cut through rational thinking, logic and common sense like the proverbial hot machete through butter -- exactly as appears to've happened right here in this thread. . .

 

Leave us further explore the concept through the enlightenment of Swami Sivananda Saraswati:

 

The Nature of Fear

From the teachings of Swami Sivananda Saraswati

 

Fear is universal. It is an instinct common to everyone. Fear can come at any time. Fear is an emotion excited by threatening evil or impending pain, accompanied by a desire to avoid or escape it and to provide for one's security. There are various degrees of fear. They are simple fright, timidity, shyness, alarm, terror and terrible fear, hear assumes various forms. Some are afraid of ghosts. Some are afraid of diseases. The vast majority of people are afraid of public criticism.

 

Normal fear and imaginary fear

 

Fear is of two kinds, normal and imaginary.

 

Normal fear is only five percent, whereas imaginary fear is ninety percent. Normal fear is healthy. It paves the way for progress. It preserves life. A headmaster is afraid of the school inspector. He takes a keen interest in training his students. All are successful in their examinations. A railway engine driver is afraid of his superior officer. He is very careful in the discharge of his duties. No collision occurs. A physician is afraid of getting a bad reputation. He takes great care of his patients.

 

Imaginary fears cause disease, deplete the energies and produce all sorts of feverish excitement, low vitality, uneasiness, discomfort and disharmony. When there is an epidemic, people worry and imagine that the germs have entered their body. Imagination plays serious havoc. They become a victim of the actual disease itself! Some develop a fear that they will lose their job. Some fear, "What can I do if my business fails?" A student prepares day and night for an examination. He has passed creditably in all the class examinations, but he develops a kind of imaginary fear - examination fear - as soon as he enters the examination hall, becomes nervous and gets confused. His hands tremble. He is not able to write. He fails in the examination. There is no end to such imaginary fears.

Yes indeed. No doubt about it. Some hereabouts are clearly afraid of demons, as well as public criticism. These would be NORMAL FEARS, according to Swami Saraswati. But I do b'lieve it must be the worst, most devastating fear of all -- AN IMAGINARY FEAR -- FEAR OF THE UNKNOWN that's been rampaging hither and anon at full gallop behind the scenes as it were, and is now successfully identified, ferreted out, and fully exposed in this here thread. . . And it seems quite pervasive, too. . .

 

 

He can't be playing with a full deck

[Guzzi2Go]

[dlaing]

Being an ignorant Philistine, I need further Clarification from Ratchet Hack:

Question 1: I need a steering damper to ensure the level of safety acceptable to me. Safety from tank slappers, causes by the very occasional perfect storm of tire, road, velocity, weight balance, too little rake and trail, flexing frame, imperfect alignment, rider input, etc. Why Ratchet do you need a damper? 1 zillion words later and I still don't get it.

Question 2: I might have gotten it and fully agreed with you, but you suggested that it is perfectly fine to have damper set to minimum, take your hands off the bars and whack the bar. While the motorcycle has self centering engineered into the geometry, there clearly are factors that can produce lethal tank slappers, and whacking the bars strikes me being one of those factors.

If you have this much faith in whacking the bar while riding no handed with damper set to minimum, why would you suggest that dampers are needed?