Q: Who “Needs” a Steering Damper?

[Greg Field]

You know what happens to peacemakers in this world, don't you, Doc? They just get shot from both sides. Still, peacemaking's a worthy thing to do. Are you still a quack?

[dlaing]

Here's the original thread referenced on RLSH, for those who are interested. Note the sly set-up. Note the usual suspects in apposition. Note how they got bowled over. Consider that this might be in play again.

 

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...t=0&start=0

The only suspect that gave you opposition to the existence of Moly in RLSPH was RH.

I opposed your claim that you could offer a life time supply of moly for $10.

In earlier threads, the only one that came close to absolute proof of the existence of moly in the RLSPH, WAS ME, providing the Material safety sheet that showed molybdenum in the RLSPH.

But of course Ratchet insisted that that was NOT convincing evidence...

[Greg Field]

The only suspect that gave you opposition to the existence of Moly in RLSPH was RH.

I opposed your claim that you could offer a life time supply of moly for $10.

In earlier threads, the only one that came close to absolute proof of the existence of moly in the RLSPH, WAS ME, providing the Material safety sheet that showed molybdenum in the RLSPH.

But of course Ratchet insisted that that was NOT convincing evidence...

 

OK. Thanks for the clarification. A bottle of the moly stuff we use is $10 and will last you a very long time. I get four years or so out of a bottle to keep my three runners adequately lubed.

[Skeeve]

... wouldn't it be fairly safe to conclude that over the last 10 years since production of the aforementioned short frame Guzzis...-- that there'd be SOMETHING credible and well documented from among the largest known community of owners and riders of these bikes who’ve actually ridden them for however many millions of combined total miles for the last decade that would provide some basis for any “truth” behind the fairy tales of the paranormal – ...

 

TODAY, WITH THE BENEFIT OF 20-20 HINDSIGHT OVER THE HISTORY OF AN ENTIRE DECADE:

 

1. What, exactly is this alleged "extremely twitchy defect" that some short frames have and some don't -- "no matter how they're set up"?

 

[empasis added to highlight time frame]

 

Does anyone else find it intriguing [or even notice?] that the Suzuki TL1000 was slammed with the same "speed wobble" indictment at the roughly the same time as the original V11 Sport? Only specifically the two models of motorcycle that would have been any threat to the Texas Pacific Group's investment in Ducati: the air-cooled Guzzi with its all-around rideability and the water-cooled Suzuki with it's dominating [for the time] performance at a bargain price?

 

Does anyone find it interesting that one of Suzuki's most recent sales successes is a direct descendant of the TL1000, that being the DL1k "V-Strom" that with little more than a stupid name [and one of the world's ugliest fairings] was tamed from being an "accident waiting to happen" to a "docile back-road bimbler?" And that anyone w/ 1/2 a brain is familiar with the fact that adding a fairing never improves handling, but typically requires adjustments to be made to prevent dangerous issues from cropping up? [Remember what happened to Guzzi w/ the police Eldos... ]

 

Are there any of my fellow conspiracy theorists out there?

 

Can it be that this is all just a tempest in a teapot that's gone on for far too many pages [& Pete Roper complained when we hit 25pp of nattering about the sloppage sheet!] because people aren't looking at the root cause of the problem [ie: payola to moto journalists I'd never trust to write my shopping list, let alone review a bike I'm interested in...]?

 

I'm just sayin'...

[GuzziMoto]

[empasis added to highlight time frame]

 

Does anyone else find it intriguing [or even notice?] that the Suzuki TL1000 was slammed with the same "speed wobble" indictment at the roughly the same time as the original V11 Sport? Only specifically the two models of motorcycle that would have been any threat to the Texas Pacific Group's investment in Ducati: the air-cooled Guzzi with its all-around rideability and the water-cooled Suzuki with it's dominating [for the time] performance at a bargain price?

 

Does anyone find it interesting that one of Suzuki's most recent sales successes is a direct descendant of the TL1000, that being the DL1k "V-Strom" that with little more than a stupid name [and one of the world's ugliest fairings] was tamed from being an "accident waiting to happen" to a "docile back-road bimbler?" And that anyone w/ 1/2 a brain is familiar with the fact that adding a fairing never improves handling, but typically requires adjustments to be made to prevent dangerous issues from cropping up? [Remember what happened to Guzzi w/ the police Eldos... ]

 

Are there any of my fellow conspiracy theorists out there?

 

Can it be that this is all just a tempest in a teapot that's gone on for far too many pages [& Pete Roper complained when we hit 25pp of nattering about the sloppage sheet!] because people aren't looking at the root cause of the problem [ie: payola to moto journalists I'd never trust to write my shopping list, let alone review a bike I'm interested in...]?

 

I'm just sayin'...

Could be, but I have ridden TL1000Rs (and crumpled one of them up into a ball). They could be incredibly unstable in certain circumstances (like sticky tires and a race track). Turning up the steering damper wasn't going to make a difference. Even Computrack was only able to calm it down some but not enough. But the V-strom only shared the motor so it has little to do with the TLR.

To this day TLRs make my shoulder hurt.

[Greg Field]

Aw c'mon GM. That's just a twitchy demon that leapt from the bike and bored into your shoulder. Maybe Hatchet could write a haiku to make it all go away?

[GuzziMoto]

Aw c'mon GM. That's just a twitchy demon that leapt from the bike and bored into your shoulder. Maybe Hatchet could write a haiku to make it all go away?

That was funny.

The accident, on the other hand, was quite spectacular from what I was told. I was doing about 130 mph coming onto the front straight at Roebling Road when the back tire slide a bit then caught. That started a wobble that was completely out of control (in spite of the steering damper, they won't save you every time) and right after the bike left the track (I was no longer in control of where it was going) it slammed me into the ground seperating and destroying my shoulder then the two of us tumbled through the air ripping the front end of the bike off (breaking the forks) and by witness estimates the bike got about 25 ft into the air. People described seeing it above the tree tops with enough hang time that they were going "Hey, isn't that Scooters bike? Isn't Michael riding that this weekend?" while they bike was in the air.

Unfortunately I don't think Hiaku's work unless you believe in them (much like demons) and I am a firm non-believer.

[Greybeard]

I wonder if any of you remember how evil handling the CBR900 was when Honda first brought it out in 1993 ?

 

Like dancing on a razor until Kaz Yoshima of Ontario Mototech machined a set of clamps with more trail.

 

Chalk & cheese.

 

But I also know of 2 other Hondas which were touted as the paragons of stability that pitched both their owners through slappers which happened without warning and no hooning.

 

My 1990 VFR and a friends CBR1000. '91 or '92.

Both problems were traced down to the steering head bearings.

On both bikes the bearings had been tightened too hard and dented the races, allowing the balls to then cycle in & out of the dents in the race at a certain harmonic.

Fwip!

Off you go then!

2001 Suzuki Bandit of mine. Let go the bars and decelerate from say about 50 MPH and such a wiggle you would get!

Swapped out the loose ball bearings for tapered rollers just like we put in the Hondas and not so much as a twitch.

[dlaing]

snip

Swapped out the loose ball bearings for tapered rollers just like we put in the Hondas and not so much as a twitch.

 

Let me see if I can really de-rail this thread...

Excellent point about the bearings.

My CB500F sure felt better after switching to after-market tapered bearings, and my V65SP felt a bit less stable after developing notches in the bearings.

So, my question is, Why use ball bearings or tapered bearings instead of plain bearings?

I have always thought tapered bearings were the way to go, but a plain bearing should wear very smoothly and have built in adjustable damping functionality, with far less complexity.

[motoguzznix]

Let me see if I can really de-rail this thread...

Excellent point about the bearings.

My CB500F sure felt better after switching to after-market tapered bearings, and my V65SP felt a bit less stable after developing notches in the bearings.

So, my question is, Why use ball bearings or tapered bearings instead of plain bearings?

I have always thought tapered bearings were the way to go, but a plain bearing should wear very smoothly and have built in adjustable damping functionality, with far less complexity.

STOP!!

 

It was a joke, wasn't it?

A plain bearing can not be adjusted to zero play as the brake away torque will increase dramatically. A steering head bearing with brake away torque is a disaster!

A rotating plain bearing supplied with oil pressure is almost friction-less, but these conditions do not occur in a steering head.

[Dan M]

Let me see if I can really de-rail this thread...

.......So, my question is, Why use ball bearings or tapered bearings instead of plain bearings?

I have always thought tapered bearings were the way to go, but a plain bearing should wear very smoothly and have built in adjustable damping functionality, with far less complexity.

 

 

Hmm, plain bearings in the steering head. Who would have thought? (I mean besides Dave) There are a few who have installed mechanical oil pressure gauges, might be a good place to tee in for oil pressure and route to the steering head with a return to the crankcase. Interesting... I say you give it a shot Dave. Let us know how it works out.

 

One more thing, that built in adjustable damping you speak of. How does it work? You see, sometimes I get cars in with worn plain bearings and the associated knock. I would be a hero to the customer if I could adjust it out for them.

[Guest ratchethack]

Hmm, plain bearings in the steering head. Who would have thought? (I mean besides Dave) There are a few who have installed mechanical oil pressure gauges, might be a good place to tee in for oil pressure and route to the steering head with a return to the crankcase. Interesting... I say you give it a shot Dave. Let us know how it works out.

 

One more thing, that built in adjustable damping you speak of. How does it work? You see, sometimes I get cars in with worn plain bearings and the associated knock. I would be a hero to the customer if I could adjust it out for them.

Hm. Looks Extremely Twitchy to me. . .

[Greybeard]

Hm. Looks Extremely Twitchy to me. . .

 

 

Actually...it may not be such a far-fetched idea at all!

A very similar application, similar if not greater loads and lube isn't a huge issue.

 

http://bombarsbeemers.com/JL.aspx

 

Hmmm...I know I've got some 660 bronze somewhere. Not Oilzite but I could machine some lube channels in to hold grease.

Could even machine a dust shield right onto the shape. <_>

[Greg Field]

I don't think it's far-fetched, either.

[dlaing]

STOP!!

 

It was a joke, wasn't it?

A plain bearing can not be adjusted to zero play as the brake away torque will increase dramatically. A steering head bearing with brake away torque is a disaster!

A rotating plain bearing supplied with oil pressure is almost friction-less, but these conditions do not occur in a steering head.

No, it was not meant as a joke.

Many steering dampers are friction based and not hydraulic.

But you could have a valid point about brake away torque, but I think the correct term is breakaway.

Selecting a bearing surface with low static friction and high dynamic friction would be ideal for damping purposes but possibly would not work as a durable, low maintenance bearing surface.

I do think a bearing surface like Greybeard mentioned would likely work very reliably, but yah, tightening to the point of trying to replicate a damper is probably a bad idea.

Also to reduce break away torque the bearing diameter may need to be lesser and the steer stem length may need to be greater.... or maybe the breakaway torque is no big deal??? which is why I ask.