Q: Who “Needs” a Steering Damper?

[GuzziMoto]

Wow....Hack has really outdone himself this time.

That has to be a record for the longest post with no actual knowledge of the subject matter.

Unlike Hack, who has zero racing miles under his belt, I have actually raced at the track in the third video countless times as it is my home track. I think to try and make the point that a steering damper is absolutely required on a Guzzi ridden on the street based on videos of track bikes crashing in a wobble (ignoring the fact that the vast majority of track bikes have steering dampers so the odds are that the bikes in videos had steering dampers) is a new standard in something. I am not sure what that something is, but it is definetely something.

If you have a bike that wobbles the way you ride it you should have a steering damper. Having a steering damper does not mean your bike will not wobble. As Hacks own video shows, wobbling can happen with one. But if your bike wobbles the way you ride it then a steering damper is a good idea. It may save your ass (or it may not). I had two bikes with dampers mounted (on racetracks) that wobbled into a crash. One wobbled so hard it broke the steering stops. I'm just saying a damper does not make your bike wobble proof.

Some bikes do need steering dampers. Hell, some riders need steering dampers. But to try to make a case that all motorcycles need steering dampers because they are required for track use and then posting videos of track bikes (presumably with steering dampers mounted) wobbling and crashing is the rantings of idiot (with no actual track experience to back up his track case). Next you'll be using the "Chewbaca defense".

Some bikes need steering dampers. Some riders need steering dampers. Some riders want steering dampers. Some are perfectly happy without them....

It depends on the bike and/or how you ride.

 

 

Edit.

Wow...after reading Hacks post again I realize it is full of more ignorance then I previously gave him credit for.

For example, if he has never even slammed his bike in a corner hard enough to feel the resistence of the steering damper and yet he is spewing this nonsense that a damper does not alter the feel of a bike...well as they say. Those that can, do. And those that can't, teach. Hack is obviously meant to be a teacher.

A V11 does not need a steering damper to be safely operated on the road. If you want a damper on yours then by all means have at it. But to suggest that every one needs one is beyond moronic.

[tom3]

This is obviously a hotly debated topic. I am completely ignorant in the subject of steering dampers. In fact, my V11 sport is the first bike I owned that has one. Setting aside whether the steering damper "should be" or "does not need to be" used, can someone kindly give a tutorial on how to properly use the steering damper?

 

I'll greatly appreciate insights on how to set one up and make sure that it's currently in good working order, and how to actually properly operate the steering damper on the road/track.

 

thank!

[Guest ratchethack]

. . .Setting aside whether the steering damper "should be" or "does not need to be" used, can someone kindly give a tutorial on how to properly use the steering damper?

 

I'll greatly appreciate insights on how to set one up and make sure that it's currently in good working order, and how to actually properly operate the steering damper on the road/track.

 

thank!

Guzzi Practical Suspension Setup Tricks for Road Bikes: Steering Dampers

 

by Ed Milich, GuzziTech

 

Ah , the lonely steering damper… It’s one of the most misunderstood components of your steering system. What the heck does it do? Do you need one if your bike doesn’t already have one? If you have one, how do you adjust the darn thing for optimum performance?

 

First of all, you need to know some background on the vibration modes of a motorcycle: specifically, wobble mode (i.e. the “tank slapper”). Wobble can be described as a self-perpetuating vibration of the front fork assembly about the axis of the steering stem. A number of variables like tires, loads, and fork geometry affect this mode. Maintaining stability while providing a quick response to steering inputs is the basic tradeoff in designing the geometry of a front end. Thus, bikes that steer more quickly are more susceptible to wobble, as they operate closer to the borderline between stability and instability of the front end. Also, wobble stability can change with speed, and load. Variables such as wind gusting, vehicle speed and wheel rotation also affect wobble, and certain combinations of these variables can cause a dramatic loss of stability.

 

The problem with wobble is that it’s a very lightly damped mode. The only physical damping comes from friction in the steering head bearings, and the hysteresis of tires and other dynamic elements. This damping is very slight, thus quick-steering bikes require the use of an external steering damper.

 

First of all, how does one determine the degree of wobble stability of a motorcycle at a specific speed and load? For this quantification, we will use our old friend the impulse test. Caution: perform this test at your own risk. I claim no responsibility for your actions. Disconnect your steering damper, or adjust it to a minimal setting. Bring your bike up to a constant speed on a straight, flat surface. To hold the speed constant, I use a throttle lock of some sort: my Lemans IV has a throttle friction screw, which works fine. With the bike moving straight ahead, and with your hands off the bars, whack one handlebar very quickly in the same plane that you would normally apply force to the handlebars to steer the bike. That is, give it a not too large, yet firm and quick input *whack* in a plane perpendicular to the steering axis. It may take some experimentation to whack it just right. You are basically exciting the wobble mode with an impulse input. If the steering borders instability, a very small steering input will produce a large wobble. If the steering is moderately stable, you may see a few oscillations before they die out entirely. If the steering is very stable, there will be no wobble at all. Note: prepare to catch the bars in case your steering is unstable! The degree at which the front-end oscillates for this test tells you your wobble stability for the test conditions. Now repeat the test. Try varying the speed in 10 MPH increments and observe how the response changes. If you normally carry a lot of load, put it all on the bike and perform the test again.

 

Why does the impulse test work? An ideal impulse input has an infinite amplitude, yet an infinitesimally small time duration. The quick “whack” to your bars approximates the impulse input. Theory dictates that an impulse input has a flat frequency response- it excites all frequencies at the same level. Associated with the wobble mode is a specific natural frequency, which is excited by the impulse. The response of the front end to this input is to oscillate at the wobble natural frequency. If this vibration mode is very stable (as it is for most Guzzis and bikes with a lot of trail for most operating conditions), the oscillations will die out on their own. If the vibration mode is marginally stable the oscillations will take a long time to dissipate. If the vibration mode is unstable the oscillations will grow until your front end oscillation hits both steering stops!

 

You may also want to perform this test while decelerating. This places additional weight on the front wheel and therefore the vibration of the front-end figures more prominently in the control of the bike.

 

Now dial in some damping from the steering damper. Repeat the impulse test. If your bike showed signs of instability before the damping was added, crank up the damping until your impulse test generates an output wobble that quickly dies out. I’d say that 1 or 2 oscillations of the front end are tolerable. More than that and I’d feel a little uneasy. By adding damping in this way, you can tune the instability out of your steering systems while maintaining a quick response to steering inputs.

 

So when does this steering damper tuning matter the most? How about when you’re leaned over in a canyon around a 25 MPH turn with a passenger and camping gear and you have to grab a handful of brakes to avoid a family of yaks that are crossing the road. You will say a prayer of thanks to the steering damper gods then.

 

If you had a data acquisition setup and a few accelerometers, you could measure the steering gain and stability numerically from the impulse test responses. This is how the major manufacturers develop their bikes to handle well. The wobble mode impulse test is standard practice for evaluating steering response.

 

If more people performed this test on their bikes before hitting the back roads, we would hear fewer horror stories about accidents and near-accidents due to tank-slappers. Unfortunately, this is a litigitous society that we live in and there is some amount of skill required to perform this test. Manufacturers are not about to instruct owners to excite a potentially dangerous vibration mode of their motorcycles for fear of someone misinterpreting the information. It is, however, important for riders to be aware of the issue of adequate wobble stability.

 

Guzzi power.

Ed Milich

 

SOURCE: GuzziTech http://www.guzzitech.com/SteeringDamp-Ed_M.html

[docc]

I wonder if the damper location right above the oil cooler contributes to failure from heat exposure?

[GuzziMoto]

The heat could effect the damper. However, aside from causing the damper to fade slightly I doubt it would have a noticable impact on longevity.

Rear shocks work under the same principle as steering dampers and quite a few of those are located near the rear cylinder of twins and aside from fade there is no other issues.

The piece by Ed on dampers has a few interesting tidbits, but I would not recommend following his procedure for test the "stability" of your bike. Even Ed takes no responsibity for what could happen. Plus it has little to do with whether or not your bike needs a steering damper or not. And how can you write a piece on steering dampers without discussing trail. It has more impact on "wobble" then rake does and is responsible for most of the natural dampening of the front end.

It is very simple, if your bike, the way you ride it, has a tendency to shake the steering then you should have a steering damper. If it does not shake its head then a steering damper will not make your bike safer. The "correct" way to use one is a stupid thing to say as there is no "correct" way aside from making sure the damper is in good working order and does not bind or stick. It absolutely needs to work smoothly, if it binds or sticks it could cause your bike to wobble when it otherwise would not. Most people who use a damper tend to turn it down as low as they can, if your bike wobbles then turn it up but otherwise most keep it as low as possible since it does slow the steering down. Some will turn it up when riding at higher speeds or over bumpy pavement but again, if your bike is not shaking its head then turning it up will not make your bike safer. You may prefer the feel of it turned up and that is fine but that is a personal preference thing and not a safety thing. Some people do not seem to understand the difference between the two.

V11s came stock with a steering damper. The steering geometry they have is pretty close to the geometry of the new Breva which does not come stock with a steering damper. The geometry of even the red frame V11s is not that extreme and does not typically require a damper. The stock steering damper is there for looks more then for safety. the stock damper does have a tendency to fail and if you do keep it on the bike then keep an eye on it as mentioned above. If you want to try your V11 without a steering damper then go ahead. You will not be the first person to ride one without a steering damper and you certainly won't be the last. If you prefer the bike with a steering damper on it (whether for looks, for feel, or maybe your bike shakes its head the way you ride it) then keep the damper on it. But if you keep it then maintain it and make sure it is working correctly.

And on this matter just like any other, you need to decide whether you will take advice from someone who has already done what you are asking about or if you will listen to someone who has never done it and doesnt actually have experience with the subject at hand.

[Guest ratchethack]

This is obviously a hotly debated topic. I am completely ignorant in the subject of steering dampers. In fact, my V11 sport is the first bike I owned that has one. Setting aside whether the steering damper "should be" or "does not need to be" used, can someone kindly give a tutorial on how to properly use the steering damper?

 

I'll greatly appreciate insights on how to set one up and make sure that it's currently in good working order, and how to actually properly operate the steering damper on the road/track.

 

thank!

Hi Tom

 

The "stuck on stupid" posts on the old Tech Forum have been a mite tedious lately, but if you don't mind waving off a few dung flies in the paddock as the price of admission, I've always found that those with sincere interest can learn a great deal here, especially myself. Others, OTOH, will always bring very little to the discussion, the evident sum total of all they know, and will ever know. I'm losing interest lately in harpooning every single example of the same old disinformation based on nothing but abject idiocy, but then I reckon it's pretty obvious to (most) readers when they find another steaming pile of the same old shite in front of 'em, anyway. There seem to be a select few lately who simply lack the requisite common sense to wield anything resembling logic or reason, and have lost all pretense of objectivity, and there you have it. Too bad it's not possible to present well qualified, well backed-up information from the most credible professional sources, or get an open and honest answer to inquiries here without triggering a geyser of filibustering and the empty blather of the usual wayward dullards. But thus has it always been, so will it ever be, and waddayagonna do? . . .

 

In further response to your Q on how to use a steering damper, Ed Milich's well qualified professional advice is spot-on. It's based on a great depth of experience, highly qualified knowledge, and no small amount of ability. He's a professional Mechanical Engineer, and both Ed and his wife are longtime accomplished Guzzi racers. To my knowledge, unlike some who would profess authority on steering dampers here based on LACK OF EXPERIENCE with them, (while actually stating that they NEVER use them), neither Ed nor his wife participate in any kind of "parking lot competition" behavior , where steering dampers are not used, and are in fact, less than useless, as noted previously. In '07 alone, Ed took no less than 5 championships in AHRMA and SWMC from 90 starts, without a single DNF, including what he thinks might be the ONLY Vintage Superbike Middleweight win on a Guzzi at Daytona. This is just me, but I reckon this says something about his mastery, as well as his qualifications and knowledge of how to properly use a steering damper -- among a few other things! Though I've met Ed several times, I never asked how many Guzzi's he's campaigned over the years, and don't know if he's even kept track himself, but he owns or has owned many for both road and track -- every one with a well-exercised steering damper, even the most "stable" of the lot, Guzzi's having the reputation of being generally more stable than more "contemporary" moto's.

 

Ed's page on steering damper setup (posted above) is an excellent guide. I've done the test many dozens of times, and find it a good gauge to go by. Is it absolutely necessary to do this for road use? No. If you're not comfortable doing it, don't. Ed's procedure is specifically intended for road use, per the title, though the principles at work are identical on the track. Speaking for myself, I set up my suspension for, and ride on mountain roads, some at fairly aggressive speeds at the limits of ground clearance, using up all the suspension travel and all the tire tread. These roads are not anywhere nearly as well-kept and smooth as most race courses, but I consider that (like many hereabouts) my optimum use of a steering damper might be much the same as many riders on road or track. From a sheer control standpoint, I would not and could not ride my favorite roads comfortably -- at any speed -- without using a steering damper -- but o' course, that's just me.

 

But here's how most of the seasoned riders I have known for 40+ years use steering dampers (same as me).

 

For road use, there are essentially two "modes", with a gradient of adjustability between the two -- MIN and MAX. These are levels of damping that must be determined by the rider. MIN is the "default" damping level for in-town and parking lot speeds. It's enough damping to provide greater control and accuracy of line on both straights and curves than possible without any damping, but not enough to hamper the high-speed bar input you need to balance the bike while navigating a parking lot. MAX is the "cranked up" setting for high-speed work, and any riding over rough, unpredictable surfaces. This level of damping is superb for accuracy of line at any speed above parking lot speeds, up to as fast as the Guzzi will go. Most riders (including myself) find that quickly whipping the adjustment back to MIN is a good idea as you turn into a parking lot. When I'm in the twisties at any speed, and/or much over about 50 MPH on the straight, I have mine set at MAX somewhere close to 100% of the time. I find that doing the "Milich test" at ZERO, MIN and MAX damping settings back-to-back is surprisingly instructive in terms of contrast.

 

While learning the greater control and accuracy of line that steering damping provides, you can safely leave it in MIN mode all the time, and according to your comfort with the added control you're achieving, dial it up at higher speeds and back it down again as you gain a feel for it. Simply can't get the hang of adjusting it on the fly? Leave it on MIN. Most of those who know how to use steering dampers correctly find that they still have greater control, comfort, and safety on MIN at all times than without using it a-tall.

 

As posted previously, I've found that using it becomes a reflexive thing once committed to muscle memory. I never need to take my eyes off the road to find it, and though I adjust it infrequently, it's been nearly as automatic as using brakes, clutch or throttle for lots of years. On the Guzzi, I've put a "cheater" on the adjustment knob that helps a great deal to get the best use out of the damper. It's a small projection JB welded on the knurled part of the knob that's easily felt through a glove. This allows me to know exactly where it's set at all times. BTW - Lately, the distance between MIN and MAX is a half-turn on the adjustment knob in my case. Regardless of how well (or how poorly) your chassis is set up, using the damper in either mode, or anywhere between, provides far greater insurance against the improbable, but ever-present potential onset of the dreaded tank slapper, and/or speed weave, with MAX being the best possible insurance. Make sense?

 

Hope this helps.

[Greg Field]

When I have my steering damper at max, the steering feels so impossibly heavy that it feels like the front tire is flat or that the steering head bearings are maladjusted.

[emry]

I can't turn unless I'm going at least a hundred with mine at max. Shit, U-turns in a parking lot are a 10 point affair at that point, I fell like i'm driving my F350. As for tedious, I don't get paid to post here, I have to earn a living and wash dishes and take an shower every day or so. Let the reader figure who does what. Maybe we all need a steering damper like the 09 Yamaha R1 has, off at low speeds and on at high speeds.... Hmmm.... As guzzi owners we hack on all kinds of stuff so why not that???

 

Ratch. You adjust you damper on the road???? While riding? You have totally lost me here. Please stay in the NW, you are dangerous. (I care nothing about accident statistics.)

 

Your opinions can get overwhelming on this site due to their frequency and length, but you need to spend less time typing and a little more time researching. Riding experience is no more than just opinion. Accuracy of line???? Damn. People read this you know.

 

P.S. Links to YouTube are just as bad Wiki, which you normally lambast.

[Guest ratchethack]

EGADS, Gents!

 

If I've been less than perfectly clear in my meaning, let me by all means apologize and attempt to make amends. . .

 

(Lest we have yet another continuation of the usual Leaping to False Conclusions in Group Formation. . .)

 

By MIN and MAX above, I WAS NOT referring to the limits of the adjustment on the damper!!

 

At full limit counter-clockwise, my damper provides NO resistance wotsoever. It takes a few FULL ROTATIONS before the fork will not flop back against the stops on either side under ZERO damping whilst on the stand.

 

At full limit CLOCKWISE, My Guzzi, and every other damper on every other moto I have owned (and know of) would instantly become an unwieldy BEAST at ANY speed, and would result in something approaching HYRAULIC LOCK and a guaranteed disaster with many separate parts and fluids (mechanical and human) not meant to be distributed across the landscape. Even less damping than this is the ONLY condition I've found where a full-on speed weave is the next thing (if not the LAST THING) that can happen as a result of the damper itself.

 

No, no, no. By MIN and MAX above, I was referring to USABLE levels of damping adjustment determined by the rider, both of which are determined as described above.

 

Hope this helps. . .

 

EDIT: Prev. post edited for clarity.

[gavo]

EGADS, Gents!

 

If I've been less than perfectly clear in my meaning, let me by all means apologize and attempt to make amends. . .

 

(Lest we have yet another continuation of the usual Leaping to False Conclusions in Group Formation. . .)

 

By MIN and MAX above, I WAS NOT referring to the limits of the adjustment on the damper!!

 

At full limit counter-clockwise, my damper provides NO resistance wotsoever. It takes a few FULL ROTATIONS before the fork will not flop back against the stops on either side under ZERO damping whilst on the stand.

 

At full limit CLOCKWISE, My Guzzi, and every other damper on every other moto I have owned (and know of) would instantly become an unwieldy BEAST at ANY speed, and would result in something approaching HYRAULIC LOCK and a guaranteed disaster with many separate parts and fluids (mechanical and human) not meant to be distributed across the landscape. Something far less than this at the damper is the ONLY condition I've found where a full-on speed weave is the next thing (if not the LAST THING) that can happen.

 

No, no, no. By MIN and MAX above, I was referring to USABLE levels of damping adjustment determined by the rider, both of which are determined, as described above.

 

Hope this helps. . .

 

 

Do I detect a backpeddle? really all this talk about steering dampners, yes or no. There hasn't been a mention of the reasons they came about, RAKE. the V11 has 26deg 25 for the swb people, hardly radical, older bikes 30deg was common, good stability, lousy at changeing direction quickly. modern sports bikes 24-23deg great through the flip flops but unstable, hence the need for a dampener. Now I run my V11 with the dampener on about 2 thirds, it doesn't affect carpark dynamics and this is the only bike I"ve ever owned with a dampener,But this is the only one thats shaken its head enough to be glad I had it

[Greg Field]

I note that it's MOSTLY the red-frame guys who think you need one and have to have much damping cranked in. Who could've predicted that?

[dlaing]

Direct quote from the WERA Motorcycle Roadracing 2009 Rulebook:

 

“A steering damper is MANDATORY on all machines and must be mounted in a safe and workmanlike manner. The damper must not overly limit the amount of stock lock-to-lock handlebar travel.”

SOURCE LINK: http://www.wera.com/rulebook/?x=1098#ch8

LOL! I don't bother to set mine to overly limit the amount of stock lock-to-lock handlebar travel. Simply limiting works for me,

but I am neither a racer nor a lawyer.

[dlaing]

Ratchet Recommended Ed's test: "with your hands off the bars, whack one handlebar very quickly"

Am I the only one that has problem with this insanity?

[dlaing]

This is obviously a hotly debated topic. I am completely ignorant in the subject of steering dampers. In fact, my V11 sport is the first bike I owned that has one. Setting aside whether the steering damper "should be" or "does not need to be" used, can someone kindly give a tutorial on how to properly use the steering damper?

 

I'll greatly appreciate insights on how to set one up and make sure that it's currently in good working order, and how to actually properly operate the steering damper on the road/track.

 

thank!

I have always set mine up to the highest setting that still steers easily enough at the lowest speeds, and if for any reason I was going to exceed 120 Veglia MPH, I reach down and give it two clicks.... of course I usually forget to dial it back out and when I go to park the heavy steering is unnerving and hazardous, but not as potentally deadly as a wobble at over 120MPH.

 

I really want a hyperpro RSC damper because they allow easy steering in parking lots and superior high speed damping, bottom line is far less compromise. Should be a no brainer for safety, but I am a tight wad with my wallet. By the way, Ohlins Forks will make your bike more stable, too!!!!

 

Anti-Ratchet-logic Hat Trick #1559

[Guest ratchethack]

Ratch. You adjust you damper on the road???? While riding? You have totally lost me here. Please stay in the NW, you are dangerous. (I care nothing about accident statistics.)

Now here's something new and completely different.^

 

Emry, please correct me if I'm misreading this somehow.

 

Are you saying that it's dangerous to adjust a steering damper while underway, and that mfgr's of both moto's and steering dampers haven't specifically designed them to be used exactly this way??

 

Please advise.

 

If this is actually what you intended to post, I've just gotta know where this comes from -- What, exactly, ever gave you this idea?