To grease or not to grease

[Morris Sod]

Just a quick question.

I have just replaced the two inner seals within the rear transmission on a 2000 Rosso Mandello. That is the the larger and the smaller seal.

 

When reassembleing, is it necessary to grease the needle rollers prior to bolting everything back together, or is the oil in the transmission sufficient to keep this all well lubricated. I use Redline fully synthetic transmission oil which is supposed to be the ducks guts as far as transmission oils go.

 

One other question, has anyone put progressive wound springs in the Mazzochi front forks to help suspension characteristics.

[Slavomir Musilek (R.I.P.)]

One other question, has anyone put progressive wound springs in the Mazzochi front forks to help suspension characteristics.

 

 

yes I did, set the SAG correctly and voilá! What a fun to ride now!

 

[gavo]

One other question, has anyone put progressive wound springs in the Mazzochi front forks to help suspension characteristics.

 

 

 

yes I did also got mine from ikon springs, very helpfull. set sag, lighter oil, smooth ride

http://www.ikonsuspension.com/content/appl...plication.shtml

[Guest ratchethack]

Just a quick question.

I have just replaced the two inner seals within the rear transmission on a 2000 Rosso Mandello. That is the the larger and the smaller seal.

 

When reassembleing, is it necessary to grease the needle rollers prior to bolting everything back together, or is the oil in the transmission sufficient to keep this all well lubricated. I use Redline fully synthetic transmission oil which is supposed to be the ducks guts as far as transmission oils go.

Morris, I also use RLSH in the bevel drive. By my experience, the needle rollers in the outboard case are not critical, since there's no full rotation there, just back-and-forth rocking of the drive housing on the axle with suspension movement. But it gets no lube from inside the case, so it needs to be greased. I use BTWG (boat trailer wheel bearing grease) here for its superior resistance to water intrusion. There have been many accounts of this bearing going dry, rusting out, and breaking up. Many seem to fail to get the external flat washer in place in its neoprene recess before torquing the spindle nut. The washer is all that protects that bearing from the elements.

One other question, has anyone put progressive wound springs in the Mazzochi front forks to help suspension characteristics.

I installed Wilbers progressive (.7 - 1.1 kg/mm) fork springs in my Marz 040. The sags came out close to the center of my target range, for as near a match of rate to load as I ever hope to achieve. (I weigh 180 lbs with full Vanson riding gear.) To say they have been a great whallopping improvement over the wimpy .64 kg/mm straight rate OEM springs, which could not be made to get laden and unladen sag settings anywhere near correct (the only choice was laden sag or nothing, but not both), would be far understating the case.

 

May I suggest the first thing to do is to make a positive ID of your forks. The Marz 040 USD was issued for 98-01 V11s. A possible alternative on a '01 would be the Marz 043 USD.

 

The Marz Web sites ain't any too user-friendly IMHO, but you could have a look here:

 

http://www.marzocchi.com/spa/moto/products...K&Sito=moto

 

Todd Eagan at GuzziTech used to be the West Coast Wilbers authorized dealer, but he's switched over to HyperPro. If you send Todd an email, he's sure to respond. He can ID your forks for you and set you up. Inquiries: Todd>at<GuzziTech.com

 

Here's Todd's GuzziTech Web page on HyperPro progressive fork springs:

 

http://www.guzzitech.com/store/HyperPro-FS.html

 

NOTE: Just to head off any confusion at the pass, there've been those hereabouts who haven't hesitated to advise (without explanation) that progressively wound fork springs are the work of Lucifer himself -- despite the decades old OEM trend toward rising rate fork springs and rising rate linked rear suspensions, and similar trends for track use. The numerous posts from those who claim to have tried and rejected the entire concept of progressive springs outright (without apparently paying any attention wotsoever to spring rates!) have been semi-amusing, but I never found them all that humorous, as far as pure comedy goes. . .

 

Now this is just me, but I've re-sprung 3 motorcycles (including both I ride today) with progressively wound fork springs, have recommended them for most riders and most kinds of riding on the road, and have been sincerely thanked every time. As with any spring upgrade, the key to success is always to get the overall rate properly matched to the load, as discussed in detail in many previous threads on the topic.

 

When selecting springs, and when cutting your preload spacers, you may find the following info helpful.

 

The Marz 040 USD fork springs fitted by Guzzi for the US (at least in my 2000 Sport) measure as follows:

 

free length = 29.5 cm., or 11.614"

 

OD = ~3.5 cm., or (as measured) 1.369"

 

wire dia. = ~4.5 mm, or (as measured) .176"

 

free coils = 22.6

 

Have fun.

[lemppari]

As there is no way of dialing in the preload in the Marzes, where do the spacers go in a USD fork?

[Tom M]

As there is no way of dialing in the preload in the Marzes, where do the spacers go in a USD fork?

 

You can adjust the preload on the 40mm Marz' forks by replacing the plastic spacers under the fork springs with longer or shorter pieces of PVC plumbing pipe.

[docc]

Hmm, the spacers go on top, no? They can be changed without removing the forks from the triple trees.

 

I had made the mistake of increasing the fork preload too much on my stock Marzocchis to where there was little rebound travel left. The answer was "correct springs" instead.

Stock spacers in black behind the LaPhroaig Single Malt and Silkolene fork oil (don't they make a nice couple?)

[Greg Field]

I'd rather drink the silkolene.

[gstallons]

Just a quick question.

I have just replaced the two inner seals within the rear transmission on a 2000 Rosso Mandello. That is the the larger and the smaller seal.

 

When reassembleing, is it necessary to grease the needle rollers prior to bolting everything back together, or is the oil in the transmission sufficient to keep this all well lubricated. I use Redline fully synthetic transmission oil which is supposed to be the ducks guts as far as transmission oils go.

 

One other question, has anyone put progressive wound springs in the Mazzochi front forks to help suspension characteristics.

 

When you reassemble anything using needle rollers, use a liberal amount of petroleum (Vaseline) jelly. This will hold everything in place til start-up. The Vaseline will melt upon warm-up and allow the gear oil to do it's job. Using any other type of grease MIGHT have a higher melting temp. This will give you trouble if a passage stops up and stops the flow of lubrication.

[Morris Sod]

Many thanks for the replies guys all points duely noted. I found no sign of dryness or corrosion in the axle and inner spac ers as has been mentioned before, every thing looked nicely lubed. I was having oil or grease escaping from the RHS seals onto my rear wheel RHS which used to make cornering interesting to say the least, I hope the new seals do the trick.

 

Thanks for the info on the progressive wound springs, I replaced a set on my T5 some years ago and found a vast improvement in ride and handling. Does $230 sound about right for the springs from Ikon?

 

Fork oil weight, 10W or 7.5W? I weigh about 80kg

Cheers

[gavo]

Many thanks for the replies guys all points duely noted. I found no sign of dryness or corrosion in the axle and inner spac ers as has been mentioned before, every thing looked nicely lubed. I was having oil or grease escaping from the RHS seals onto my rear wheel RHS which used to make cornering interesting to say the least, I hope the new seals do the trick.

 

Thanks for the info on the progressive wound springs, I replaced a set on my T5 some years ago and found a vast improvement in ride and handling. Does $230 sound about right for the springs from Ikon?

 

Fork oil weight, 10W or 7.5W? I weigh about 80kg

Cheers

 

Here's the link I weight 90kg's

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14014

[Tom M]

Docc,

I couldn't remember if the spacers were above or below the springs so I checked the parts book diagram (7/02 book page F8). It shows the spacers under the springs. I just looked at the workshop manual and it shows the spacers on top of the springs (03/01 manual F29). I don't remember which way my forks were assembled from the factory but I put the new spacers in the same way.

 

Morris,

I initially used 7.5 weight with my new 1.05 kg/mm springs but the forks were harsh even with the compression damping backed all the way out. I changed over to 5wt and I like the fork action much better. FYI I weigh about 230lbs.

[Guest ratchethack]

Does $230 sound about right for the springs from Ikon?

Wilbers .7 - 1.1 kg/mm progressives, PN 600-062-01 were half that price (~5 years ago).

Fork oil weight, 10W or 7.5W? I weigh about 80kg

I weigh the same as you, went from 10W dino FORK OIL (Guzzi spec), to 7.5W dino FORK OIL (Wilbers recommended), and eventually settled on 125/150 synthetic/petro CARTRIDGE FORK FLUID (Golden Spectro), with a significantly better match to my preferences at each change. Depending on dino FORK OIL mfgr., 125/150 CARTRIDGE FORK FLUID is the rough equivalent of 5W - 7.5W WRT damping. Synth SHOULD have a longer operating life relative to dino. Going to a lighter fluid allows use of more of the available range of damping adjustability at the lower end of the damping scale.

 

Springs or spacers on top? It makes no difference in operation, but if you're anal about chasing grams of unsprung weight, the "ideal rule" is "tight" coils on progressive springs go at the top. If you're just as anal WRT chasing lowest possible center of gravity, springs go under spacers.

 

FWIW, when replacing the OE spacers, I couldn't get an exact match to the OE spacer diameters (ID and OD) with PVC, so I had to doctor up the PVC spacers by chamfering the ends so the spring collars would sit square on the spacers. Otherwise the springs would tend to go cockeyed in the stanchions under compression and scrape against the bore.

[luhbo]

For race bikes such progressive springs are uncommon. By good reasons. They might be soft and smooth at the beginning of the stroke, but this later has to be compensated with a way to hard characteristic at the end. Remember, you have only 120mm of stroke, not really a lot of travel.

For the average rider, not suffering from obesidy, the standard springs are ok - adjust riding height / sag to the correct value and keep the oil level in the tubes low. Keep your front fork moving, else no proper dampening will be possible.

The rear spring is too hard, even for me with 90kg in gear, you should compensate this with a rather low height setting.

 

BTW: at least over here progressive springs are not offered with different characteristics. They have just one type: Guzzi V11. Nothing with rider's weight or the like.

 

Don't buy them, they're crap.

 

Hubert

[Guest ratchethack]

For the average rider, not suffering from obesidy, the standard springs are ok - adjust riding height / sag to the correct value. . .

. . . [sigh]. . . Here we go again. . .

 

To refresh your memory, Hubert (you and I have been over this at least twice before) the US-issued springs in 2000 Sports were .64 kg/mm straight rate springs. This is an ideal spring rate for riders of 125-150 lbs. (~57-68 kg.) Evidently (again, as already covered extensively before) the springs in your Guzzi (wherever they came from -- either Guzzi or a previous owner?) seem to be significantly higher rate than this. The progressive Wilbers I replaced my OE springs with are .7 - 1.1 kg/mm. This is the equivalent of a .9 kg/mm straight rate spring, a great wallopping ~50% higher rate than the US-issue OE springs. Both straight rate and progressive rate springs of equivalent overall rate will have EXACTLY THE SAME match of rate to load at correct laden sag settings, which makes this statement entirely misleading, and an indication of a poor understanding of the principles involved at best:

They might be soft and smooth at the beginning of the stroke, but this later has to be compensated with a way to hard characteristic at the end.

The simple fact is that rising rate suspensions have been the preferred choice over straight rate suspensions for many decades now -- on both road and track. This is no accident, nor is it some passing popular fad.

 

You still seem to be ignoring proper sag setup altogether. ANY spring of any rate (or even broomhandles in place of springs) can be set to proper laden sags by adjusting preload. The problem with solid broomhandles for springs is that UNLADEN SAG will be the same as LADEN SAG. UNLADEN SAG is properly set around HALF of laden sag, depending on objectives and preferences, aka "target" sags. This is CRITICAL to setting up suspensions properly. Without understanding this and getting it right, you're simply shooting in the dark, and you have no reason to expect anything other than a poorly set up chassis and mediocre handling.

BTW: at least over here progressive springs are not offered with different characteristics. They have just one type: Guzzi V11. Nothing with rider's weight or the like.

(Again) No mfgr. of progressive springs I know of has EVER suggested -- either by intent or by advertising -- that "one spring rate fits all". That idea is yours and yours alone. If you have anything to back up this false idea, I wish you'd provide it here. The fact that SOME mfgrs. of progressive springs only offer a rate for average weight riders for the Marz 040 fork (the same as some mfgrs of straight rate springs!) IS NOT any kind of implication that "one rate fits all". A wide range of available spring rates for the now decade old Marz 040 USD forks aren't as easy to find as for many other forks these days, but if you can't find the correct rate with one mfgr., you need to look for another mfgr. that offers the rate you're looking for. There still seems to be several to choose from. Simple enough.

 

Anyone who would purchase replacement or "upgrade" springs without knowing exactly what rate springs they're paying for, and at least having SOME IDEA of the rate of the springs they're replacing hasn't the foggiest idea about what they're doing, and probably deserves exactly what they get for their money.

. . .and keep the oil level in the tubes low.

The suggested starting point for air gap adjustment (luftkammer to you and Wilbers) for Marz 040 USD forks is 100 mm. This may be varied to adjust the ADDITIONAL RISING RATE air spring at the end of the 120mm stroke at full compression. Assuming spring rates are properly matched to load, if a rider goes below 100 mm on the oil level (air gap) adjustment as you suggest, he may expect a higher probability of bottoming the fork on hard, square-edged bumps. The oil level (air gap) is properly adjusted by front-braking hard over the most extreme bumps with a zip-tie on a fork tube to indicate maximum fork travel at full compression. This is an indicator of how much fork travel is actually used in operation, and allows the air gap to be adjusted accordingly (again, as discussed many times previously).

 

Having correctly adjusted the air gap on my Marz 040 (according to the procedure at link below), I found that RAISING the oil level (decreasing the air gap) to 94 mm is optimum for my purposes. This directly contradicts your incorrect notion above about how progressive springs operate. You clearly don't understand what you're posting about, so your "it's crap" comments are not not only ignorant, but worse than worthless. They're potentially misleading to others.

 

For anyone sincerely interested, here's a page on Pete Verdone's site that discusses oil level adjustment (air gap) with a clear illustration of the operating principles involved:

 

http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com/oilheight.htm

 

Sure hope this^ helps someone. As we have discovered, there are many who will NEVER get it. . .

 

. . . And waddayagonna do?