To grease or not to grease

[Guzzi2Go]

Hmm, the spacers go on top, no? They can be changed without removing the forks from the triple trees.

 

I had made the mistake of increasing the fork preload too much on my stock Marzocchis to where there was little rebound travel left. The answer was "correct springs" instead.

Stock spacers in black behind the LaPhroaig Single Malt and Silkolene fork oil (don't they make a nice couple?)

I see Silkolene, urine sample and some green stuff in glass tube. Is that the single malt?

 

+ as luhbo says, in Germany (DDÜA) you can't buy springs per characteristics, but per motorcycle type (otherwise you lose your "licence to kill"). No way to find out what are you actually buying and may well be they are just the same as the OEM installed ones. However, I see you buy springs from same manufacturers elsewhere. Where do you get spring characteristics info from?

[luhbo]

. . . [sigh]. . . Here we go again. . .

 

To refresh your memory, Hubert (you and I have been over this at least twice before) the US-issued springs in 2000 Sports were .64 kg/mm straight rate springs. This is an ideal spring rate for riders of 125-150 lbs. (~57-68 kg.) .... and ..... and ..... so .... on....

 

Don't buy progressive springs, they're crap.

 

We had a lot of funny discussions like this, just remember the wobbly thread or the sloted tps thread and the like. This one, the one with the wimpy springs for US bikes only, always was my favorite.

 

Sometimes those Italians can make one wonder, don't they?

 

Hubert

[Guest ratchethack]

. . .in Germany (DDÜA) you can't buy springs per characteristics, but per motorcycle type (otherwise you lose your "licence to kill"). No way to find out what are you actually buying. . . Where do you get spring characteristics info from?

If you can't get spring rates from a spring manufacturer, why would anyone EVER buy their springs??!!

 

This would be as absurd as ordering tires BLIND, without knowing what dimensions you'll get?!?!

 

This would seem rather elementary, but evidently not to everyone : When upgrading moto springs, if you don't know what your starting point is, how do you know how far to go to meet your objectives?!?!

 

Many suspension sites provide spring rate calculators. This is invaluable for anyone wanting to know what they're riding on as a starting point.

 

GuzziTech provides a spring rate calculator here:

 

(Yes, I know it says SHOCK SPRING calculator, but the principles are the same for fork springs.)

 

http://guzzitech.com/springrate.html

 

Suspicious? All gibberish and "mumbo-jumbo", Hoodoo and Voodoo ??

 

Here's another:

 

http://www.engineersedge.com/calculators/c...pring_k_pop.htm

 

And another:

 

http://www.racingsuspensionproducts.com/spring%20rate.htm

 

And another:

 

http://www.proshocks.com/calcs/coilsprate.htm

 

NOTE: I haven't tried all of these myself, but how hard could it be for anyone sincerely interested to run a few and check for consistency?

[Guzzi2Go]

...

Long and useless, as always...

[Guest ratchethack]

Sometimes those Italians can make one wonder, don't they?

No more so than Germans or Americans. . .

Long and useless, as always...

Hm. . . Put a compass or a watch (or a calculator) in front of a chimp, and he'll use each one as a hammer, every time. . .

[Dan M]

Long and useless, as always...

 

 

Well, some are saying progressive springs of various rates are not available "over there" (Of course Slavomir got some in the Czech Repbulic, must be some sort of vari rate black market or something)

 

And claim that they are crap.

 

So for those who are asking the question, I'd think links to actual suspension professionals are indeed useful.

 

 

Posts like the one quoted here are not of much use though.

[emry]

Only things i'll add.

 

Spring manufacturers know the rate of the springs they are winding/selling - call them or find another, if you don't know why to ask, you need to read more.

 

I actually read Ratchs posts, he has done his homework on suspension and is offering useful information and some good links, but I offer one correction. Racers don't use progressive rates - straight rate only, at least I have yet to meet one who has. Progressive springs are popular with some segments of street riders though and have been used by some OEM's.

 

Lubho - were you ever a left-fielder?

[GuzziMoto]

Do progressive rate springs work? Well that depends on how you define "work". They do hold up the bike and they do bounce, but as mentioned racers don't use them. They certainly can work but they are not likely to give better results then a straight rate spring. The biggest problem with them is that the preload you apply to the spring will compress the lower rate coils first. This may or may not leave any of the lower rate coils to actually suspend the bike. Another issue with them is if they actually did work then how would your dampening work properly. You would either have too much or too little at some point in the travel as dampening and spring rate must work in unison to work right.

Ask KTM how hard it is to get progressive dampening right. If and when they figure it out they probably won't say exactly what they did.

Can you use progressive springs? Sure, and you may even be happy with them. Ignorance is bliss. But do they work better then straght rate springs. Not likely without serious alterations to dampening that are beyond your average guys budget and ability. But if all you do is putz around on the street you may be able to convince yourself that they are superior. Personally I have tried both and found there was nothing that progressive springs did better and there was a point where straight rate springs were better, but that was at a speed that I only would hit on the track.

Straight rate springs are likely cheaper so I would go with them as things that are better AND cheaper don't come along often enough.

Any spring that is the proper rate for your weight and style is better then a spring that is the wrong rate.

Beyond that...

[docc]

Any spring that is the proper rate for your weight and style is better then a spring that is the wrong rate.

[Guzzi2Go]

Well, some are saying progressive springs of various rates are not available "over there" (Of course Slavomir got some in the Czech Repbulic, must be some sort of vari rate black market or something)

 

And claim that they are crap.

 

So for those who are asking the question, I'd think links to actual suspension professionals are indeed useful.

 

 

Posts like the one quoted here are not of much use though.

 

I guess those who can read really have advantage over those who cannot.

 

Dan, I am well aware of various spring calculators available on the net, but I don't intend to roll my own springs, I'd simply like to order some. And if you go to web pages of Wilbers, WP, etc. you will find a set of springs for Moto Guzzi V11 without any additional information. The reason for that is that simply putting the springs of your choice without having a piece of paper saying these are approved and allowed to be used on a specific motorcycle type is considered illegal in Germany. This is probably the reason why manufacturers do not offer the information. I contacted Wilbers and WP, but got no info.

 

So if you can offer a link to a web shop, preferrably this side of the pond that offers the relevant information about the spring kit (like compression rate, length, diameter, etc.), feel free to post it. Otherwise, just STFU.

[Dan M]

I guess those who can read really have advantage over those who cannot.

 

Dan, I am well aware of various spring calculators available on the net, but I don't intend to roll my own springs, I'd simply like to order some. And if you go to web pages of Wilbers, WP, etc. you will find a set of springs for Moto Guzzi V11 without any additional information. The reason for that is that simply putting the springs of your choice without having a piece of paper saying these are approved and allowed to be used on a specific motorcycle type is considered illegal in Germany. This is probably the reason why manufacturers do not offer the information. I contacted Wilbers and WP, but got no info.

 

So if you can offer a link to a web shop, preferrably this side of the pond that offers the relevant information about the spring kit (like compression rate, length, diameter, etc.), feel free to post it. Otherwise, just STFU.

 

 

Yea, I've heard about those German check points where they dismantle your forks and check spring rates before arresting you. Very troubling.

 

I'm on the other side of the pond where companies like Wilbers have them available. Evidently what you are saying is they only make them for export. I'm not doing your research for you as you claim to be able to read.

How about contacting Slavomir, he seems to have found them on that side of the pond. Perhaps he has superior reading skills.

 

You know, I'm the kind of guy who'd lend a hand and ship some over if they were not available there. Oh, wait I better STFU. nevermind...

[Skeeve]

Racers don't use progressive rates - straight rate only, at least I have yet to meet one who has.

 

Yup, racers sure have it easy: no expansion joints, no frickin' potholes, just nice, smooth asphalt with the occasional gentle ripple...

 

Of course they only use straight rate springs; it eliminates the variables to make dialing in the fork for the utmost performance on that particular track possible. Of course, if tracks weren't utterly smooth in comparison to real world roads, or if they had to run the same equipment all season, then maybe they might opt for progressive springs.

 

Ah, that'd be the life: having a chase van stocked w/ spare front ends so I can swap out the forks for a trip up thru Big Sur, and then BAM! slap on a different set for the run out Carmel Valley road! Woo hoo!..

 

[in case you haven't figured it out yet, I'm solidly in the progressive wound springs camp for motorcycles that aren't simply track queens...]

[Guest ratchethack]

Yup, racers sure have it easy: no expansion joints, no frickin' potholes, just nice, smooth asphalt with the occasional gentle ripple...

 

Of course they only use straight rate springs; it eliminates the variables to make dialing in the fork for the utmost performance on that particular track possible. Of course, if tracks weren't utterly smooth in comparison to real world roads, or if they had to run the same equipment all season, then maybe they might opt for progressive springs.

 

Ah, that'd be the life: having a chase van stocked w/ spare front ends so I can swap out the forks for a trip up thru Big Sur, and then BAM! slap on a different set for the run out Carmel Valley road! Woo hoo!..

 

 

[in case you haven't figured it out yet, I'm solidly in the progressive wound springs camp for motorcycles that aren't simply track queens...]

Excellent point, Skeeve.

 

How many V11's d'you reckon there are that are 100% dedicated to racing? This is just me, but I'm thinking fewer than most any marque, and far fewer than non-V11 Guzzi's racing Vintage, BOT, chasing LSRs, and what-have-you. There may be .000001% of V11s on the planet dedicated 100% to racing. I've never heard of one, but I'm no Boy Racer (nor a BR Wannabe), and that's just me. Regardless of the obligatory smattering of Boy Racer Wannabees hereabouts who will always insist that any alternative to chassis tuning for the track is for wimps, they do all (or very nearly all) of their own V11 riding on the road -- just like you, me, and everyone else here.

 

As you point out, rising rate suspensions are more forgiving of widely variable and unpredictable road conditions and loads encountered on roads, as opposed to the relatively unchanging and substantially more predictable conditions on tracks.

[savagehenry]

So if you can offer a link to a web shop, preferrably this side of the pond that offers the relevant information about the spring kit (like compression rate, length, diameter, etc.), feel free to post it. Otherwise, just STFU.

I have no problem with disagreements, or that some members consistently find others posters contributions inane, overly verbous or simply wrong. I do find comments like the one I've highlighted as completely counter productive and uncalled for. I am more than capable of turning the mood ugly in a conversation, and that's a great phrase in which to do so. G2G, I only point this out because it didn't strike me as being in charactor with the usual tone of your posts I've read in the past. Just my .

[luhbo]

Go to this link and look whether you will find different springs for the V11 :finger:

 

http://www.wilbersusa.com/hyperpro-springs.htm

 

Just one type, same as everywhere else on earth probably, suitable for every Sport from '99 onwards including the LeMans! No chance to configure length, rate or whatever.

 

So obviously again just words coming from your side. Words, words, words and more words. If not even lies

 

BTW, Skeeve, if I may quote you "[in case you haven't figured it out yet, I'm solidly in the progressive wound springs camp for motorcycles that aren't simply track queens...]": what specific type of progressive spring do you have in your V11? I mean, what rate, what length (for preload), what stiffness at the beginning and what at the end? Or were you just lucky and for you the standard Wilbers kit was just perfect?

Or you, Ratch and Dan, what spring are you using? Also of the same weight as Skeeve?

 

As Guzzi2Go already wrote: 5 links to different calculators are useless. We need links to where we can buy different types of springs. Just one link to show a bit of good will would be enough already. If you have one at least.

 

Hubert