To grease or not to grease

[Guest ratchethack]

. . .what specific type of progressive spring do you have in your V11? I mean, what rate, what length (for preload), what stiffness at the beginning and what at the end? Or were you just lucky and for you the standard Wilbers kit was just perfect?

Or you, Ratch . . . what spring are you using? Also of the same weight as Skeeve?

I reckon if you were sincerely interested in answers to your Qs, Hubert, you would have found them in post #4 and other posts since then in this thread.

 

By your posts above, including your Q about spring "length (for preload)" (free length is 100% unrelated to preload) you have yet to recognize the necessity of getting BOTH laden and unladen sags correct, and you don't yet comprehend that sags are impossible to adjust correctly with preload as long as there is an incorrect match of rate to load.

As Guzzi2Go already wrote: 5 links to different calculators are useless. We need links to where we can buy different types of springs. Just one link to show a bit of good will would be enough already. If you have one at least.

Do you have any idea what rate springs you're riding on now, Hubert? If not, you cannot rationally consider the wisdom (or lack thereof) of proper spring rates on your Guzzi, as has been pointed out previously. You have been provided multiple links to discover your existing spring rate for yourself above. Once you know this, you have an idea of the general ballpark you're playing in, and can generally figure out very easily which way you want to go (if at all), and how far. With your Guzzi on a stand, it's a 5-10 minute task to have a fork spring out for measurement, and a 20-second task to plug the numbers into a spring rate calculator.

 

If this^ doesn't help, no apologies. You'll either do some reading on the subject from a credible source (countless threads on the topic on this Forum, with multiple credible sources linked), actually learn the simple principles involved and change your conception of suspension setup entirely, or you'll remain incapable, with no possibility of setting up your Guzzi correctly, nor any understanding of its true handling capabilities and road manners as designed and intended.

 

Whether you're aware of this or not, much of the planet isn't in the EU, and not only isn't (yet) bound by their silly UBERREICH nonsense, but couldn't much care less -- unless or until they have an awareness of what's coming soon to the rest of the planet, that is. . . But such considerations are political, and beyond the scope and intent of the Tech Forum. Unless or until the entire non-EU planet is subject to similar idiotic and draconian regulations that evidently now prevent EU spring mfgrs from openly specifying spring rates, you'll forgive us if much of the planet isn't all that sympathetic. After all, you brought this on yourself, and this is merely the most benign indication of what is to come. But in any case, if you aren't resourceful enough to find a way to get spring rates from your spring manufacturer of choice, and/or you simply can't get ahold of this critical information (it's THE MOST CRITICAL piece of information on any spring for any application), I can't imagine why you would consider buying their springs. It's the classic "pig-in-a-poke".

 

But as long as you don't know your existing spring rates, don't know how to set sags properly, and can't comprehend the importance, knowing mfgr. spring rates would be useless information to you anyway -- so why all the insincere questions??

[luhbo]

Hm, not really substantial. Ok, you mentioned your values and provided a link to Guzzitech. What does he sell - the one and only available V11 spring kit. Surprise surprise.

 

You guys,

That's more substantial.

 

Hubert

[savagehenry]

This was about greasing needle bearings in the rear drive. It seems we are going to go into a longer discussion on progressive vs. single rate springs. Maybe it would be more relevant to more members if we opened a dedicated thread on this?

[GuzziMoto]

Yup, racers sure have it easy: no expansion joints, no frickin' potholes, just nice, smooth asphalt with the occasional gentle ripple...

 

Of course they only use straight rate springs; it eliminates the variables to make dialing in the fork for the utmost performance on that particular track possible. Of course, if tracks weren't utterly smooth in comparison to real world roads, or if they had to run the same equipment all season, then maybe they might opt for progressive springs.

 

Ah, that'd be the life: having a chase van stocked w/ spare front ends so I can swap out the forks for a trip up thru Big Sur, and then BAM! slap on a different set for the run out Carmel Valley road! Woo hoo!..

 

[in case you haven't figured it out yet, I'm solidly in the progressive wound springs camp for motorcycles that aren't simply track queens...]

 

Clearly you do not race. The tracks you see on TV are usually pretty smooth, but the local tracks club racers race on are often anything but smooth. Racers need compliance over bumps, ripples, and undulations because when you are at or near the limits short comings often mean more then an uncomfortable ride. They just can't afford to give up proper suspension control for it.

There is no reason you can't use progressive springs, many do. But there are reasons why few racers use them, mostly having to do with the direct relationship between spring rate and dampening. Having a spring rate that changes requires a dampening rate that changes to maintain proper suspension action. That is not feasible so progressive springs result in a compromise. And finally, spring rate, spring length, and spring preload are all inter-related so you can not have an educated discussion of one with considering the others. In fact with progressive springs spring length and preload directly effect rate. So feel free to express your satisfaction with your progressive springs, but that is not evidence of straight rate springs inferiority.

[Guest ratchethack]

[in case you haven't figured it out yet, I'm solidly in the progressive wound springs camp for motorcycles that aren't simply track queens...]

Was ist das?!

 

 

Unapproved feder sind streng verboten!

 

Welcome to The New World Order, Skeeve.

 

How long d'you reckon it'll be before there's a razor wire fence around the camp?

[GuzziMoto]

Oh, and by the way Hatchwack, post #31 was a doozy even by your normal standards. Keep up the good(?) work.

[Guest ratchethack]

Oh, and by the way Hatchwack, post #31 was a doozy even by your normal standards. Keep up the good(?) work.

Well, well. Here’s Quazimodo with a 4-alarm bell-ringer, clearly begging for more attention. We’re gonna have some fun now.

 

Tell me, Quazi. Is it the number of times your bell got rung, or is it all the riding in circles you do that seems to make you so dense? If you have a specific point to make, why not act like an adult and present an argument on its merits (if any), instead of flinging some empty infantile remark without either a point, or any intelligence attached?

 

But as long as you clearly consider your chain yanked here, Quazi, why not put all that Boy Racer (or is it more correctly, “BR Wannabe?”) expertise to work here, and let’s have a few explanations for some of your statements in this thread:

The biggest problem with [progressive springs] is that the preload you apply to the spring will compress the lower rate coils first. This may or may not leave any of the lower rate coils to actually suspend the bike.

Huh?

 

If the lower rate coils are bound, how could lower rate coils be left to suspend the bike??

 

At laden sag on my fork, I estimate as many as 10 or so coils might be coil-bound, by deliberate design, according to the specified rate of the spring. Since I can’t see inside, I don’t exactly know how many, and it really doesn’t matter anyway, does it?

 

Now, then. Could you explain what suspends my Guzzi at this point, or is there some chance that there’s nothing left at that point to suspend the bike, as you seem to have explained above? Now if there’s nothing left, how could my forks possibly work at all? Is it magic? Voodoo? Some other paranormal phenomena?

Another issue with them is if they actually did work then how would your dampening [sic] work properly. You would either have too much or too little at some point in the travel as dampening [sic] and spring rate must work in unison to work right.

Hm. “. . .if they actually did work” -- As if they don’t??

 

Try this on for size, Quazi: Your fork, with its straight rate springs, operates on a very significant air spring that ADDS an extremely PROGRESSIVE rate to your straight rate springs. It’s a rate that rises EXPONENTIALLY, with the compression of air. This means that nearing full fork compression, the combined rate rises so sharply, that the rate curve (yes, it's no longer a straight line, it's a curve when you add in the air spring) on your fork goes nearly vertical.

 

Since you’re a self-acclaimed Boy Racer, we all expect that you’ve had all this covered on ALL YOUR OWN racing bikes for years, and you don't need to rely on some old rumor about what someone else said somebody else did, because we all know that you’ve done it all yourself. We're all sure by now, according to your posts, that you've discovered long ago how to ALTER FORK DAMPING JUST RIGHT, IN BOTH DIRECTIONS (compression and rebound) to match it exactly to the dramatically rising PROGRESSIVE spring rate your forks achieve -- right when you need it the most -- when you’ve got the fork fully loaded near full compression entering a turn, with your radial RACING master brake clamped down as hard as it gets without washing out, and you hit those nasty "bumps, ripples, and undulations" at the same time. . . Your fork damping HAS TO BE PERFECTLY MATCHED to the UPPER END OF THE PROGRESSIVE RATE CURVE TO WORK IN UNISON, err. . . doesn't it? That's what you said above. So what happens when you change the oil level, which can substantially shift the curve?? Why, that'd make the same general change at the top end of the rate curve as changing out straight rate springs for progressive springs?!?!

 

So how, exactly, have you managed to accurately compensate YOUR FORK DAMPING for all that added PROGRESSIVE air spring force at that most critical point of fork travel, Quazi? Do tell, please. I'm begging you.

Ask KTM how hard it is to get progressive dampening [sic] right. If and when they figure it out they probably won't say exactly what they did.

Now here's something new. A racing team that "probably" won't tell what they did to figure something out. No one here needs to hear how much trouble KTM Racing, or anyone else had dialing in damping on progressive springs. It’s irrelevant, immaterial, and it's a poor argument that's been misused for decades by those who haven't a clue about what they're talking about. More teams have spent more time, effort, and trouble dialing in damping on straight rate springs -- by multiple orders of magnitude -- just on the relative numbers of each type of spring.

 

Now let's see if you can actually answer any of the above questions without posting something idiotic like, “Well you’re just a big poopy-pants!”. Do your best, please?

 

. . . [sigh] . . .

[GuzziMoto]

If the lower rate coils are bound, how could lower rate coils be left to suspend the bike??

 

Because there are more then one?(or two?) If you really can't comprehend simple math like this I can't help you.

You may have say 10 coils that will compress with less energy applied to them (lower rate part of the spring). If you compress say eight of them then there is little of the spring left to compress at the lower rate. If eight was all you had to begin with then you have no more of the lower rate part of the spring left and what you end up with is an essentially straight rate spring despite what it said on the box they came in.

 

At laden sag on my fork, I estimate as many as 10 or so coils might be coil-bound, by deliberate design, according to the specified rate of the spring. Since I can’t see inside, I don’t exactly know how many, and it really doesn’t matter anyway, does it?

 

See above for explaination of whether it matters or not (here's a hint, it does)

 

Now, then. Could you explain what suspends my Guzzi at this point, or is there some chance that there’s nothing left at that point to suspend the bike, as you seem to have explained above? Now if there’s nothing left, how could my forks possibly work at all? Is it magic? Voodoo? Some other paranormal phenomena?

 

I'm going with the higher rate part of the spring is holding up the bike after the lower rate part has been compressed, but I'm a man of no faith in what I can't see or touch, so I don't believe in voodoo or the paranormal

 

Hm. “. . .if they actually did work” -- As if they don’t??

 

I was refering to whether they work as implied by the seller.

 

Try this on for size, Quazi: Your fork, with its straight rate springs, operates on a very significant air spring that ADDS an extremely PROGRESSIVE rate to your straight rate springs. It’s a rate that rises EXPONENTIALLY, with the compression of air. This means that nearing full fork compression, the combined rate rises so sharply, that the rate curve (yes, it's no longer a straight line, it's a curve when you add in the air spring) on your fork goes nearly vertical.

 

Try this on for size, Hatchet. Pull the spring and replace it with enough oil to compensate for the volume lost. Now compress the fork tube. It has no "spring" because while air is a progressive spring it has such belled curve that it does not have any spring until a point about where your fork has already bottomed unless your oil level is too high. That is why setting oil level is so important.

 

Since you’re a self-acclaimed Boy Racer, we all expect that you’ve had all this covered on ALL YOUR OWN racing bikes for years, and you don't need to rely on some old rumor about what someone else said somebody else did, because we all know that you’ve done it all yourself. We're all sure by now, according to your posts, that you've discovered long ago how to ALTER FORK DAMPING JUST RIGHT, IN BOTH DIRECTIONS (compression and rebound) to match it exactly to the dramatically rising PROGRESSIVE spring rate your forks achieve -- right when you need it the most -- when you’ve got the fork fully loaded near full compression entering a turn, with your radial RACING master brake clamped down as hard as it gets without washing out, and you hit those nasty "bumps, ripples, and undulations" at the same time. . . Your fork damping HAS TO BE PERFECTLY MATCHED to the UPPER END OF THE PROGRESSIVE RATE CURVE TO WORK IN UNISON, err. . . doesn't it? That's what you said above. So what happens when you change the oil level, which can substantially shift the curve?? Why, that'd make the same general change at the top end of the rate curve as changing out straight rate springs for progressive springs?!?!

 

So how, exactly, have you managed to accurately compensate YOUR FORK DAMPING for all that added PROGRESSIVE air spring force at that most critical point of fork travel, Quazi? Do tell, please. I'm begging you.

 

Since my straight rate spring does not have a progressive rate this is all meaningless.

 

Now here's something new. A racing team that "probably" won't tell what they did to figure something out. No one here needs to hear how much trouble KTM Racing, or anyone else had dialing in damping on progressive springs. It’s irrelevant, immaterial, and it's a poor argument that's been misused for decades by those who haven't a clue about what they're talking about. More teams have spent more time, effort, and trouble dialing in damping on straight rate springs -- by multiple orders of magnitude -- just on the relative numbers of each type of spring.

 

Since this is about KTMs production bikes that they sell to anyone and they have yet to figure out how to make progressive dampening work as well or better then straight rate dampening this is also meaningless.

 

Now let's see if you can actually answer any of the above questions without posting something idiotic like, “Well you’re just a big poopy-pants!”. Do your best, please?

 

. . . [sigh] . . .

 

Hope this helps.

And by the way, I am not a boy racer. I have raced quite a bit (and still do) and been sucessful at it but I didn't even start untill I was in my 20's and that was a long time ago.

[Guest ratchethack]

The biggest problem with [progressive springs] is that the preload you apply to the spring will compress the lower rate coils first. This may or may not leave any of the lower rate coils to actually suspend the bike. Another issue with them is if they actually did work then how would your dampening [sic] work properly. You would either have too much or too little at some point in the travel as dampening [sic] and spring rate must work in unison to work right.

Huh?

 

If the lower rate coils are bound, how could lower rate coils be left to suspend the bike??

 

At laden sag on my fork, I estimate as many as 10 or so coils might be coil-bound, by deliberate design, according to the specified rate of the spring. Since I can’t see inside, I don’t exactly know how many, and it really doesn’t matter anyway, does it?

 

Now, then. Could you explain what suspends my Guzzi at this point, or is there some chance that there’s nothing left at that point to suspend the bike, as you seem to have explained above? Now if there’s nothing left, how could my forks possibly work at all? Is it magic? Voodoo? Some other paranormal phenomena? .

Because there are more then one?(or two?) If you really can't comprehend simple math like this I can't help you.

You may have say 10 coils that will compress with less energy applied to them (lower rate part of the spring). If you compress say eight of them then there is little of the spring left to compress at the lower rate. If eight was all you had to begin with then you have no more of the lower rate part of the spring left and what you end up with is an essentially straight rate spring despite what it said on the box they came in.

Hm. Since you've repeated yourself here with your explanation of "the biggest problem" with progressive springs, without a coherent answer to my question, I reckon your first incoherent statement was actually deliberate, after all. Both your original statement and your response to my question are complete balderdash. Though you stated somewhere before that you have experience with progressive springs, the evidence you've been laying out here clearly indicates otherwise.

 

Contrary to your incoherent notions above, of all 3 sets of progressive fork springs I have installed and ridden on (for well over a decade combined, and counting), none ever got remotely close to having any problems whatsoever compressing past the point of laden sag, which, inexplicably, seems to be your imaginary "problem area". Each set I installed has provided, and 2 are still providing, many years of consistently trouble-free, reliable operation. In each case, they were matched properly by rate to load, and preloaded correctly to provide full, smooth and compliant operation over the entire available stroke, and each (including the Guzzi) yielded considerably greater than a 100% satisfactory upgrade, in my estimation.

 

The differences between rate curves on progressive and straight rate fork springs are not all that great -- especially when rates are combined with the added progressive rate of an air spring, as found in all leading forks today. The variations on a rate graph are actually only slight, and there's no mysterious, "dampening" [sic] "lack of unison" boogeyman hiding in the shadows, despite your vague suggestions to the contrary.

 

I've found that Boy Racers and BR Wannabees for the most part all share many annoying characteristics regardless of age: They all possess a grossly inflated, yet quite fragile sense of their own abilities, experience, and knowledge, and they all seem to suffer from arrested development at some point in childhood, beyond which they can't seem to learn a damned thing. When you get just a little bit below their paper-thin facade, (as demonstrated in black and white above) most seldom have much of a clue about what they bloviate about. Many never grow up.

 

I found this bit semi-amusing, but (really) not all that great as far as pure comedy goes:

. . .If eight [coils] was all you had to begin with then you have no more of the lower rate part of the spring left and what you end up with is an essentially straight rate spring despite what it said on the box they came in.

Uh-huh. With some (all or part??) coils bound, a progressive spring "essentially" becomes a straight rate spring?!?!

 

No, I don't b'lieve so. Not much of a notion here, as far as uniquely false, baseless, and unsupportable notions go . . .

 

Um, depending on application, there are usually somewhere around 25 coils in a progressive fork spring, but you already knew that from all your experience with them, didn't you, Quazi?

 

I've found by direct personal experience over 3 separate multi-year service histories with them on the road (and offroad), that progressive springs are engineered very carefully, and unless installed improperly and/or severely mismatched with regard to rate to load, they can't ever come close to fully coil-binding. Many will always ignore matching rate to load altogether, as illustrated so well previously in this thread -- with predictable results.

 

More Old Wive's Tales . . . [sigh] . . . waddayagonna do?

[Greg Field]

Another classic bloviation fest.

 

I can tell you why progressive-rate springs are often recommended by vendors: If the vendor can convince the customer that it doesn't matter if the customer weighs 140 or 340 lb., that one progressive spring can be shimmed to work perfectly, the vendor only has to stock one spring. If the customer is foolish enough to believe this, and afterward is satisfied and even testifies to this technique's effectiveness afterward, then the customer lucked out and happened to weigh in the range that the spring is appropriate for, or he just fell victim to the power of suggestion.

 

I don't even try to be so bold as to make such a silly argument (that one progressive set can work for all customers). I carry progressive springs for many of the Guzzis, but they are not all the same spring rates. If a guy has a T3 but is heavy, I sell him the heavier springs for a Cal II, for example. Vice versa, if he is light. For the really sporting guys who have bikes for which one can order straight-rate springs, I try to convince them that this is the best way to go, and it is the best way to go, provided you can help him choose the right springs. This takes experience, and sometimes we have to exchange for a lighter or heavier spring after he's tried the one we thought would be perfect.

[luhbo]

Thank you, Greg.

 

Hubert

[GuzziMoto]

Hachetwacker, I am sorry you cannot grasp this stuff, but it is not my problem.

Maybe you already know so much that there is no more room for new learning.

If you cannot understand that a progressive rate spring typically has some coils that are wound closer together and as they compress they coil bind which shortens the length of the spring and increases the rate of the spring. You can also increase the rate of a spring by cutting out a section and replace it with solid spacer. When you apply preload to the spring a progressive spring will loose a part or all of its lower rate compression first. The spring will keep compressing after all of its lower rate compression is used up, it will just take more energy to compress because it is now the higher rate part that is compressing. In a progressive spring all the coils do not coil bind at the same time. The ones that are closer together coil bind first which raises the spring rate for the rest of the springs travel.

If 10 coils out of your 25 coil spring are the ones that are closer together and when you preload the spring 8 of these coils touch one another (coil bind) then you have used up most of you lighter spring rate and most of what is left will be the higher rate. this will alter the point in travel where the increase in spring rate occurs. If you only had 8 coils wound closer together to begin with and they are all touching (coil bound) then you now have in essence a straight rate spring. This is really simple and until you can grasp this none of the rest is worth discussing.

As for my experience with springs, I have used Progressive Suspension standard progressive springs, plus some trick dual rate springs with an adjustable cross-over point, and straight rate springs. Some of the straight rate springs were in high dollar Ohlins Superbike forks and some were in OEM forks. As Greg said the best results were obtained by using straight rate springs of the correct rate. Progressive rate springs are a bit less rate sensitive but do not work as well. The dual rate springs with adjustable cross-over seemed like a novel idea and while they did perform better then the progressive springs they were not better then the straight rate springs.

You seem to have some sort of hatred of people who actually do things instead of sitting around talking about how things "should" work. The fact that I have more experience then you on this matter does not mean my opinion is less valid then yours.

Run progressive rate springs, I don't care. But please don't try to tell me and anyone else listening that progressive springs are superior to straight rate springs.

[Guzzi2Go]

I have no problem with disagreements, or that some members consistently find others posters contributions inane, overly verbous or simply wrong. I do find comments like the one I've highlighted as completely counter productive and uncalled for. I am more than capable of turning the mood ugly in a conversation, and that's a great phrase in which to do so. G2G, I only point this out because it didn't strike me as being in charactor with the usual tone of your posts I've read in the past. Just my .

Well, I must admit, I gave it a second thought before posting. However it seemed well in line with the general tone this thread has taken. If you look closer, it does not really stick out.

[Guest ratchethack]

. . .please don't try to tell me and anyone else listening that progressive springs are superior to straight rate springs.

Why, the VERY IDEA!

 

To any self-respecting Boy Racer (or BR Wannabe), this rises to the level of being EVERY BIT AS OFFENSIVE as trying to tell you and anyone listening that Sport/Touring tires are superior to Sport tires!

 

Why, we JUST CAN'T HAVE THAT KIND OF THING HERE! You know that once this stuff gets started and gains momentum, it could be hard to put a stop to! By all means, gotta nip it in the bud!

 

In fact, the accusation itself is SO EGREGIOUS, that lacking any evidence, the MERE SUGGESTION that anyone here ever as much as THOUGHT such a thing should rightfully be considered a CAPITAL OFFENSE!

 

Tell you what, Quazi -- If I were you, I'd look VERY CAREFULLY for any actual evidence that any dirty scoundrel actually put such a dastardly thing in print and posted it here. Don't waste any time about it. While you're looking for the evidence, round up a posse, bring the scalawag in, and STRING 'IM UP by the nearest tree. This is such an UNPARDONABLE CRIME, that should there actually be no evidence a-tall -- NO MATTER! In that case, you cook up something incriminating (doesn't much matter what), and plant it strategically for the occasion.

 

If necessary, hold a trial before the hanging -- or afterward, whichever's most convenient.

 

Tell you what (Part II) Quazimodo -- Just so's you know my heart's in "the right place" on this one: If you can nail this blaggard with anything remotely resembling evidence, you be the Judge and Jury, and I'll be your hangman. No bones about it.

[GuzziMoto]

. . . [sigh]. . . Here we go again. . .

 

Yadda, yadda yadda....

 

The simple fact is that rising rate suspensions have been the preferred choice over straight rate suspensions for many decades now -- on both road and track. This is no accident, nor is it some passing popular fad.

 

Yadda, yadda yadda

. . . And waddayagonna do?

 

Sorry, I assumed that when you said "the preferred choice over straight rate" that you were implying that they were better then straight rate. Maybe you meant they had a higher profit margin? Maybe you were talking about rear suspensions?

And if you don't think that progressive springs are better then straight rate springs then what is it I said that you take exception to...

I said that straight rate springs were best but that progressive spring would be fine for most people on the street and that any set of springs that was the correct rate were better then springs that were not. But racers do not usually use progressive springs. There is a reason for that.

But what is with the racer hate? Did a racer steal your girl along time ago? What gives?

On behalf of racers everywhere, what ever it was, I apologize.