Progressive fork springs: One size DOES NOT fit all.

[dlaing]

Lot of fuss about some bent wire?

 

Not surprising I don't visit very often any more is it???

 

Pete

Well if that ain't the poet calling the lyricists a bunch of WRITERS!!!

[pete roper]

Well if that ain't the poet calling the lyricists a bunch of WRITERS!!!

 

Meaning what exactly Dave?

 

pete

[dlaing]

The rising rate – progressive springs have a rate of 7.2 to 15.0 N/mm or Kg/cm[/indent]

SNIP

He's clearly NOT engaging in some sleazy attempt to hawk a mismatch of rate to load by selling some false notion that "one size fits all".

SNIP

If the rate of Hyperpro springs doesn't fit your objectives (they don't fit mine),

What sizes of rider will that fit, and "not fit"?

Without knowing linear rate curve I'd guess it would fit anyone from 50-150 kilograms who didn't need race performance maximization, and it would be far better than stock for any rider over 70kg.

Rising rate springs DO fit ALL sizes better than straight rate springs.

People who ride two up frequently or who face extremely varying terrain especially benefit from rising rate springs.

Most racers however won't touch rising rate springs for the track with a ten foot pole.

Why won't this HyperPro rising rate spring fit your objectives?

[dlaing]

Meaning what exactly Dave?

 

pete

Meaning you are one to raise a fuss, yourself.

Want me to find some examples?

[pete roper]

Oh for f@cks sakes Dave? Get a bloody grip.

 

Pete

[Guest ratchethack]

Why won't this HyperPro rising rate spring fit your objectives?

Howizzit I instinctively have a nagging suspicion that this Q is less than sincere?

 

The rate range of the HyperPro springs significantly exceeds a correct match of rate to load for me based on my weight, riding preferences and load carrying requirements. Contrary to widespread popular ignorance/delusion, not all progressive springs are the same rate -- just like straight rate springs (see thread topic).

 

By the rate spec numbers provided (7.2 to 15.0 Kg/cm), the HyperPros would not allow me to get both laden and unladen sags in my target ranges regardless of preload, according to standard practice professional suspension setup guidelines discussed on this Forum repeatedly over many years (and provided by multiple links to original sources). The Wilbers (.7 to 1.1 Kg/mm), that I've been riding on for 4 years do so very nicely -- at half the start to top rate range of the HyperPros -- right on target.

 

The HyperPro springs would be much more suitable for someone considerably heavier than myself, and/or a rider with load/passenger carrying needs considerably more substantial than mine.

 

Seems simple enough to me (Part II).

Most racers however won't touch rising rate springs for the track with a ten foot pole.

Uh-huh. And how many regular visitors to this Forum (or much've anywhere else) d'you figure do anything resembling dedicated racing (on racetracks, that is -- as opposed to occasional "exhibitions" in parking lots or "track days") with their V11's?

 

I'm thinking something very close to (if not dead nuts on) ZIP. . .

[dlaing]

Howizzit I instinctively have a nagging suspicion that this Q is less than sincere?

 

The rate range of the HyperPro springs significantly exceeds a correct match of rate to load for me based on my weight, riding preferences and load carrying requirements. Contrary to widespread popular ignorance/delusion, not all progressive springs are the same rate -- just like straight rate springs (see thread topic).

 

By the rate spec numbers provided (7.2 to 15.0 Kg/cm), the HyperPros would not allow me to get both laden and unladen sags in my target ranges regardless of preload, according to standard practice professional suspension setup guidelines discussed on this Forum repeatedly over many years (and provided by multiple links to original sources). The Wilbers (.7 to 1.1 Kg/mm), that I've been riding on for 4 years do so very nicely -- at half the start to top rate range of the HyperPros -- right on target.

 

The HyperPro springs would be much more suitable for someone considerably heavier than myself, and/or a rider with load/passenger carrying needs considerably more substantial than mine.

 

Seems simple enough to me (Part II).

 

Uh-huh. And how many regular visitors to this Forum (or much've anywhere else) d'you figure do anything resembling dedicated racing (on racetracks, that is -- as opposed to occasional "exhibitions" in parking lots or "track days") with their V11's?

 

I'm thinking something very close to (if not dead nuts on) ZIP. . .

Oh forF@CK sakes ratchet, my f@ckin' question was sincere!

Your answer is reasonable, but raises another question, why do you want to replace the Wilbers? Also, What are your ideal spring rate numbers? And what are you ideal sag numbers?

 

And yes, very few here have dedicated V11 Track bikes, but many here have had their opinions shaped by credible folk that do spend a lot of time setting up suspension for the track.

There are reasons why each rising rate and straight rate are superior.

Shall we get it on and rehash the debate?

 

Maybe we could compare two straight and two rising rate fork springs:

7.2 to 15.0 Kg/cm HyperPro

7 to 11 Kg/mm Wilbers

~7 Kg/cm OEM

10 Kg/cm Traxxion

[dlaing]

By the way,

I would not be surprised if the Wilbers and HyperPro were the same spring and were just measured with different methodology. Wilbers could be measuring just the first 150mm of compression, while HyperPro could be 50% of compression or 100% of compression. Any method could be being used. I would not assume they are both measuring the first and last millimeter of compression, nor would I assume they are both measuring real world rising rate as it rises on the bike, which is what matters.

 

Here is a good (but dated) Yamaha FZ1 forum article comparing OEM, Traxxion and HyperPro

http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/forum/showthrea...p?threadid=6694

[Guest ratchethack]

Oh for f@cks sakes Dave? Get a bloody grip.

Oh forF@CK sakes ratchet. . .

Hm. There seems to be some kind of a bizarre 5-day echo^ in here. . .

. . .why do you want to replace the Wilbers?

Hm. (Part II) Whatever gave you the idea I want to replace the Wilbers, Dave? Does an inquiry on a spring rate tell you something it doesn't tell me? Did you read my post before asking all your Q's?

 

Looks like not. This^ is as solid an indicator of the lack of sincerity of your Q's as you could provide. . .

. . .What are your ideal spring rate numbers?

Hm. (Part III) . . .What part of the following was unclear to you?

The Wilbers (.7 to 1.1 Kg/mm), that I've been riding on for 4 years do so very nicely . . . right on target.

. . .And what are you ideal sag numbers?

Hm. (Part IV) This Q is getting a bit far off topic now. Since you aren't paying attention, nor are you riding on a fork that can use the same springs, nor would your spring rate requirements be anywhere close to mine based on your weight alone, anyway -- I reckon if you were sincerely interested in an answer to this one, you'd have paid attention when I posted both my target and actual sags a half-dozen or more times when the topic(s) was (were) setting sags, when many others were sincerely interested in the topic of setting sags, and when you were actively participating in those same threads.

 

Tell you wot, Dave. You open a new topic on setting sags (I don't b'lieve we've had one for quite awhile), and should somebody -- anybody -- with sincere interest ask me the same Q, I'm always happy to oblige, same as always. Otherwise, do a search. Neither my weight, riding preferences, load carrying requirements, nor my sag settings have changed.

[dlaing]

Hm. There seems to be some kind of a bizarre 5-day echo in here. . .

 

Hm. (Part II) Whatever gave you the idea I want to replace the Wilbers, Dave? Does an inquiry on a spring rate tell you something it doesn't tell me? Did you read my post before asking all your Q's?

 

Hm. (Part III) . . .What part of the following was unclear to you?

 

 

Hm. (Part IV) This Q is getting a bit far off topic now. Since you aren't paying attention, nor are you riding on a fork that can use the same springs, nor would your spring rate requirements be anywhere close to mine based on your weight alone, anyway -- I reckon if you were sincerely interested in an answer to this one, you'd have paid attention when I posted both my target and actual sags a half-dozen or more times when the topic(s) was (were) setting sags, when many others were sincerely interested in the topic of setting sags, and when you were actively participating in those same threads.

 

Tell you wot, Dave. You open a new topic on setting sags (I don't b'lieve we've had one for quite awhile), and should somebody -- anybody -- with sincere interest ask me the same Q, I'm always happy to oblige, same as always. Otherwise, do a search. Neither my weight, riding preferences, load carrying requirements, nor my sag settings have changed.

So, your goal is not to improve YOUR bike, but to waste the time of the HyperPro salesman, in your quest to "put a stake through" an alleged and somewhat weakly defined delusion, presumably that some advertise and hype progressive springs as "one size fits all"

The truth of the matter is that the Wilbers, WP, and HyperPro, all offer an improvement over stock for most riders, yes if you weigh less than 50Kg you are better off with the stock springs, and if you weigh more than 150Kg or want the best possible set up for your weight and road conditions, many will do better swapping out straight rate until you find what is best for YOU.

Rising rate springs work better over real world conditions of sometimes riding two up, sometimes riding on smooth roads, and sometimes riding on pot hole filled roads.

Of course they can't do everything for everyone, but they do more for more people.

Just dropping them in is half the battle. Pre-load and fork oil level should be optimized.

You could very well find that the Wilbers and HyperPro are identical. Or, you might find the HyperPro is actually firmer, but it might work fine if you use a lower oil level.

You use 100mm air space, and if I recall correctly you use "magic" numbers of 18mm unladen and 36mm laden. If the HyperPro is NOT identical, and if the higher number were actually right at the end of fork travel, your sag would not be much different. You might have to SUFFER with 19/35 instead of 18/36, but that does not mean it does not work, and if you were now nowhere near bottoming and having your travel restricted by the possibly firmer HyperPro, you could possibly increase your air space enough to allow for more full use of available travel.

You state, "If you can't get specs, you aren't trying", but the truth is your specs don't tell us squat if we don't know how the specs are measured.

If you wanna put a stake through it, you still have work to do.

[Guest ratchethack]

. . .[insincere, pointless, and incoherent bilge]. . . If you wanna put a stake through it, you still have work to do.

Um, Dave.

 

 

I b'lieve you've floated a Great Whallopping Jell-o of some kind in the swimming pool here.

 

There are neither much've any coherent points, nor is there much've anything to grab ahold of here, so there's not all that much that can be done with it. But I reckon putting a stake though it would be about as effortless as the proverbial hot knife through butter.

 

It appears to be yet another variation on your trademarked wild speculation shooting off in all directions.

 

It looks vaguely like you might be attempting to demonstrate knowledge based on experience here. If so, what first-hand experience, exactly, do you have setting up progressive fork springs? To me, having set up and ridden on 3 separate progressive fork spring sets on 3 different moto's (2 of which I'm riding now, including the Guzzi), with a combined mileage of some 50K+ mi. on them, your post looks a lot like ZIP experience with any. . . FOR EXAMPLE:

. . .the truth is your specs don't tell us squat if we don't know how the specs are measured.

Err. . . you sure that's really "the truth", Dave?? If it somehow isn't entirely self-explanatory to you , and you sincerely want to know how a mfgr. specs their springs (presumably this would tell you the "squat" that you're after?? ), I suggest you either ask them directly, or ask a factory Rep, as I did to get a rate spec, per my opening post above. As far as wasting their time? It's their job and their responsibility to respond to inquiries on the products they represent, it's a service they're specifically compensated to perform, and I've generally found (with some exceptions) that they tend to respond fairly promptly (see opening post in this thread).

 

If no other value, and assuming your inquiry might be taken seriously (this might be a stretch), a reply from a factory Rep may actually be semi-amusing. If you're sincerely interested (this is just me, but based on your history here, I doubt it), I reckon you'll take my advice. But if you should surprise me, yourself, and who knows who else, and actually take me up on this, you might want to post whatever response you get here, as I've done (again, see opening post). Or not.

 

Off to work with you now, and good luck.

[guzzi jon]

I sell WP springs. All I know of are progressive.

 

 

I haven't the patience to read through all the drivil, partitiurlarly certain legends in their own minds.. I have dealt with Klause on Wilbur and Hyperpro, if it ait right he fixes it, that's it.....not a bad policy some shops in seattle and in houston do the same thing, go figuire.....

[dlaing]

I haven't the patience to read through all the drivil, partitiurlarly certain legends in their own minds..

But you have the nerve to insult people...nice.

[dlaing]

I just noticed Klause's store has 15% off all suspension items till December 31st

http://www.epmperf.com/hyperpro-springs.htm

But I would go through Todd Eagan and GuzziTech first, because I know him first hand. Todd should be able to match the price.

http://www.guzzitech.com/

Todd was very helpful to me when I pursued buying a Wilbers shock. He gave me all the dimensions which helped me determine that the Wilbers body was longer than the Penske and Ohlins, resulting in higher ride height and less stroke, than what I wanted.

[RacerX]

But I would go through Todd Eagan and GuzziTech first, because I know him first hand. Todd should be able to match the price.

http://www.guzzitech.com/

Todd was very helpful to me when I pursued buying a Wilbers shock. He gave me all the dimensions which helped me determine that the Wilbers body was longer than the Penske and Ohlins, resulting in higher ride height and less stroke, than what I wanted.

Thanks David, happy to price match for anyone mentioning this site for any V11S product.

p.s. Check in on the GuzziTech.com Southwest Forum, Jim is asking on who's riding this weekend down your way.