Gas Tank

[Guest ratchethack]

Over the last couple years, I've had to shave down the "interference fit" at the front of rear section and rear of the tank 3 times just to be able to take the tank off and get it back on. 6 years ago, it cleared with space to spare.

 

Just another joy of being forced to pay for the most expensive to produce, least efficient fuel on the planet.

 

-- and the fact that Moms Gaia's not a bit better for this is the gob-smacking absurdity of it.

[dlaing]

ghadzooks! It is the manufacturer who spec'd the wrong plastic. Guzzi knows there is ethanol is the gas and yet they used cheap plastic. On the good side, plastic doesn't rust.

Maybe we should do a group buy for some aluminum tanks????

Anyone game?

 

As for ethanol, I am not sure anyone has proven it is the primary culprit. Is the inside of the tank turning to jelly? Are holes melting through? Maybe eventually??? I suggest that is multiple factors. The plastic just can't take the heat, the vibration, the weight of the fuel, and the chemical properties of the fuel don't help either with ethanol being the worst ingredient, but it is the nature of the plastic that is the problem.

 

Ethanol has a lot of good qualities such as boosting octane rating of gasoline, potentially lowering dependence on fossil fuels, lowered negative emissions, etc., but there are major negatives as Ratchet pointed out. I am so surprised to see Ratchet concerned about Mother Gaia, LOL!

I think ethanol has great potential. But the tradeoffs have not been good. Limited success of Brazilian Cane Alcohol complicated by deforestation of the Amazon and creation of other socio-economic problems. Environmentally backwards American Corn Alcohol has not set a good example either.

Algae and switchgrass as bio sources for alcohol could prove better, and maybe solar powered distilleries could yield better environmental benefits, but the economics have not yet allowed these to succeed. But that should change soon.

[Greg Field]

Every time I go to the liquor store, I see rows and rows of plastic bottles full of 80-110-proof booze. Every time, I marvel that none of them seem to be swelling, and then I wonder, "With four times the concentration of ethanol present in gasoline, shouldn't these plastic tanks be melting before my very eyes?"

 

Consider the possibility that it's not the ethanol that's the culprit. Could it be something added to the additive package that's goes along with the ethanol?

 

Lesser men never even consider such things . . .

[Guest ratchethack]

Lesser men who never consider the obvious are truly sad individuals, indeed.

 

 

Billy Gibbons, Dusty Hill,

and Frank Beard (drums)

doin', Cheap Sunglasses

 

D'you reckon lesser men consider that plastic heart valves are made o' the same plastic as cheap sunglasses?

 

Ethyl alcohol will zip straight through some plastics. Other plastics are chemically engineered to be impervious to it indefinitely. Of the countless formulations of plastic in common use by most every human on the planet, a great many will react to ethanol in many different ways that are outside their original formulation objectives -- including slight expansion over time. Is this a news flash? It's been covered extensively by every conceivable media (including moto forums, magazines, etc.) for decades.

 

Many on this Forum and elsewhere likewise seem to consider that anything flexible is made of the same, monolithic compound of "rubber", and expect everything that's black and pliable to react the same way to heat, light, chemicals, etc.

 

I reckon the "plastic is plastic", "rubber is rubber" and "parts is parts" people who consider all "same-same" must be "lesser men".

[Dan M]

Are we sure it is not caused by excessive UV from a reduced ozone layer?

Just asking.

[DeBenGuzzi]

Are we sure it is not caused by excessive UV from a reduced ozone layer?

Just asking.

would that warm the planet too? or cool it?

[emry]

Been kept in a garage since I bought it new in 02, except when I ride of course, and doesnt UV make plastic brittle, not grow; you are thinking of plants.

 

This made me think of the older plastic dirt bike tanks that did just fine until the past 5 or so years. The inner portion of the tanks have been breaking down and clogging fuel filter and jets, some of these tanks survived the 70 and the 80's. I have also seening this issue with older watercraft.

 

I think the plastic was spec'ed right, for the fuels of the day. I think the science behind the push for ethanol use is flawed.

 

If they rasie the limits to %15 we will all be on the side of the road. Looks like 100LL will be my fill up choice.

 

If you want to try a little science experiment, go get some silicone fuel line from a hobby shop, it is only a few bucks. Soak in pump gas for an hour and come back and you will have a piece of hose that has doubled in size. Let it dry out for a few hours and it returns to its orginal size. I'll try it with some 100LL when I get a chance and see if it does the same thing.

[Richard Z]

Mine was replaced under warranty due to the fuel pump and something wrong with a check valve... It swelled enough to just start chipping the paint under the mounting area. Found it when I was replacing the air filter... The tank wasn't the problem. It was the fall over thingymajig that kept the fuel from draining out if it had fallen over.

 

 

So I have have my original tank in a box ready for someone to buy....

[Skeeve]

If they rasie the limits to %15 we will all be on the side of the road. Looks like 100LL will be my fill up choice.

 

Don't count on that: the EPA is putting the screws to the FAA to eliminate 100LL (a bit of a misnomer that: 100 "Low Lead" has a higher %age of tetraethyl lead than any leaded gas ever sold for the street.)

 

Fortunately, there's a lot of old planes that won't work with anything but, so you're safe for now.

[emry]

Well after a little MSDS digging it dawned on me plastic, HDPE - high-density polyethylene, which is used for most gas tanks is really only capable of resisting its (gasoline) compunds for a number of years. The orginal intended life span for automotibes was only 10 years, the testing done of course to simulate that time frame was just simulated. Ultimately everything in gas will affect most plastics particularly when exposed to elevated tempueratures.

 

http://www.calpaclab.com/pages/chart.html

 

http://www.docs.citgo.com/msds_pi/UNLEAD.pdf

 

So, as pointed out ethanol is not the only likely culprit. I guess maybe there is a market for custom Al tanks.

[Dan M]

.......Consider the possibility that it's not the ethanol that's the culprit. ....

 

Lesser men never even consider such things . . .

 

There have been many materials that were thought to be OK for use with fuel containing ethanol that degraded only after long term use.

Some automotive manufacturers had to change fuel injector materials due to leaks that were said to be caused by ethanol damaging the plastics used.

 

Underwriters Laboratory says ethanol causes potential of degradation in metals and composites, especially in higher concentrations.

The article this is from addresses higher E percentages and their effect on fuel dispensing pumps.

 

"Underwriters Laboratory Allows E15 in Gasoline Pumps

4 Comments Posted by Michelle Kautz – February 20th, 2009

Underwriters Laboratories (UL) released a press statement on February 19 noting that it will allow up to fifteen percent ethanol in gasoline dispensing units. The press release said that they support Authorities Having Jurisdiction (AHJs) who decide to permit legacy system dispensers, Listed to UL 87 and currently installed in the market, to be used with fuel blends containing a maximum ethanol content of 15%.

snip

 

UL researchers found that using equipment certified to UL 87 to dispense ethanol blends with a maximum ethanol content of 15% should not result in critical safety concerns. However, the company stressed that dispensers pumping this higher percentage of ethanol should be subject to regular inspection and preventative maintenance as specified by the dispenser manufacturer for the blend of fuel being dispensed because the potential for degradation of the metals and materials (e.g., plastics, elastomers and composites) used in a dispensing system increases as the percentage of ethanol increases."

 

Whole article here:

http://domesticfuel.com/2009/02/20/underwr...gasoline-pumps/

[Greg Field]

I work at the busiest Guzzi dealership in the US, maybe in the world. Last year, we sold 10 percent of the Guzzis sold in the US. Typically, we sell 20 percent. Some years, we have sold 25 percent of the Guzzis sold in the US. We're talking on the order of 400 Guzzis with plastic tanks in the time I've been working there, not the one Guzzi most of you have cared for. I order all the parts for those bikes and am a trusted advisor to ur service department, so would know if there's a problem. We have had not one single tank warranteed for bubbling or stretching issues, or an older bike come in with these issues, except for one V11 that lived its life in Portland until last year, despite the fact that 10 percent ethanol has been mandated in Seattle since the late 1990s. MPH Cycles in Houston has had stacks of tanks warranteed for these issues in the same time frame, despite the facts that they've only had mandated ethanol for a few years and they sell fewer bikes. I would submit to you that Houston gas gets a different additive package than Seattle gas, along with the same ethanol load, and that you should therefore look to the add-pack to find the differences in warrantee claims for damaged plastic tanks. What do I know, though, compared to all the experts on this list?

[dlaing]

I work at the busiest Guzzi dealership in the US, maybe in the world. Last year, we sold 10 percent of the Guzzis sold in the US. Typically, we sell 20 percent. Some years, we have sold 25 percent of the Guzzis sold in the US. We're talking on the order of 400 Guzzis with plastic tanks in the time I've been working there, not the one Guzzi most of you have cared for. I order all the parts for those bikes and am a trusted advisor to ur service department, so would know if there's a problem. We have had not one single tank warranteed for bubbling or stretching issues, or an older bike come in with these issues, except for one V11 that lived its life in Portland until last year, despite the fact that 10 percent ethanol has been mandated in Seattle since the late 1990s. MPH Cycles in Houston has had stacks of tanks warranteed for these issues in the same time frame, despite the facts that they've only had mandated ethanol for a few years and they sell fewer bikes. I would submit to you that Houston gas gets a different additive package than Seattle gas, along with the same ethanol load, and that you should therefore look to the add-pack to find the differences in warrantee claims for damaged plastic tanks. What do I know, though, compared to all the experts on this list?

That is a great argument for Ethanol not being the culprit, but

why do think the cause is a fuel additive and not heat?

[Dan M]

I work at the busiest Guzzi dealership in the US, maybe in the world. Last year, we sold 10 percent of the Guzzis sold in the US. Typically, we sell 20 percent. Some years, we have sold 25 percent of the Guzzis sold in the US. We're talking on the order of 400 Guzzis with plastic tanks in the time I've been working there, not the one Guzzi most of you have cared for. I order all the parts for those bikes and am a trusted advisor to ur service department, so would know if there's a problem. We have had not one single tank warranteed for bubbling or stretching issues, or an older bike come in with these issues, except for one V11 that lived its life in Portland until last year, despite the fact that 10 percent ethanol has been mandated in Seattle since the late 1990s. MPH Cycles in Houston has had stacks of tanks warranteed for these issues in the same time frame, despite the facts that they've only had mandated ethanol for a few years and they sell fewer bikes. I would submit to you that Houston gas gets a different additive package than Seattle gas, along with the same ethanol load, and that you should therefore look to the add-pack to find the differences in warrantee claims for damaged plastic tanks. What do I know, though, compared to all the experts on this list?

 

Wow.

 

Sorry if you took it as an argument against your superior Moto Guzzi dealership experience. I wasn't trying to refute your awesome and impressive credentials Greg.

 

I just thought it helpful to supply forum members with actual technical information rather than opinion.

 

The conversation I picked up in this thread was ethanol in gasoline as a culprit. I'm no chemist and I'm assuming that you are not either (otherwise I think you would have told us) but I'm thinking ethanol combined with gasoline and other chemicals is attacking the plastic. But like I said, I'm no chemist so I linked to studies actually done by chemists (rather than dealership employees) that claim ethanol in gasoline will attack materials in fuel systems.

 

UL, SAE and auto manufacturers all feel it is enough of an issue to publish papers and TSBs about it. What do they know? Perhaps they are all lesser men like the rest of us.

[Skeeve]

That is a great argument for Ethanol not being the culprit, but

why do think the cause is a fuel additive and not heat?

 

I think Dave may be on to something here: the combination of ethanol's high vapor pressure, warmer avg. daily temps, and a vent system notorious for getting pinched (& therefore, not venting) may all add up to MPH's vastly differing experience from that at MI?..