dhansen Posted February 14, 2010 Posted February 14, 2010 I think Dave may be on to something here: the combination of ethanol's high vapor pressure, warmer avg. daily temps, and a vent system notorious for getting pinched (& therefore, not venting) may all add up to MPH's vastly differing experience from that at MI?.. I was thinking along the lines of higher ambient temperatures myself. Here in Maine my V11 seldom sees temperatures over the mid 70's F. No signs of trouble here yet despite the 10% ethanol.
Greg Field Posted February 14, 2010 Posted February 14, 2010 That is a great argument for Ethanol not being the culprit, butwhy do think the cause is a fuel additive and not heat? I don't discount heat as a contributor. But neither do I just assume that it is the ethanol that is causing this problem.
gstallons Posted February 15, 2010 Posted February 15, 2010 Has anyone considered the frame is shrinking?
Guest ratchethack Posted February 15, 2010 Posted February 15, 2010 Has anyone considered the frame is shrinking? Good point, Gene. Some (but not all!) short frames are haunted killers, you know . . . and no way to tell the difference until they strike!
The Monkey Posted February 15, 2010 Posted February 15, 2010 I've run 10% ethanol fuel predominantly for the last 40000km (2.5 seasons) with no expansion observed. I am however going to reinsulate the tunnel of the tank as I expect to be riding a fair bit in N. California this season. Hopefully the amount of expansion experienced by the affected members will be finite. Plastic or its many derivatives is the most malleable of materials so I dont think adjusting the swollen tanks will be that difficult but it will mean a repaint. From heatguns to ovens, surely the tank can be warmed sufficiently to press the leading sides to stop contacting the forks and in the worse cases modifying the stops or the receivers (forward mounts on tank) will enable a swollen member to mount the rear without issue.
gstallons Posted February 15, 2010 Posted February 15, 2010 Good point, Gene. Some (but not all!) short frames are haunted killers, you know . . . and no way to tell the difference until they strike! I thought you would like that!
emry Posted February 15, 2010 Posted February 15, 2010 Just a little more background information. The last time I had the tank off was approx 1 year ago, I did not notice any fitment issues. While it could have been longer at that time, it come off and when back on with no drama. The bike was not ridden during the past year, it has sat in a garage. I would estimate average temp in the garage would be bewteen 35-95 degrees F. I work across the street so walking is my mode of commute. The tank was keep full, and the tip over valve has been removed since 02.
dlaing Posted February 15, 2010 Posted February 15, 2010 Maybe temperature is not the culprit, either. The worst elongation that I experienced was after taking a nearly full tank off the bike, letting it sit a week and then trying to get it back on. Garage temperature probably never got over 90F. I have probably had tank off more than ten times and it has always had clearance issues, and trouble realigning, but the last time was the worst, presumably because of tank sitting off the bike, and years of stretching limited by being bolted in position, but it seems to be degrading, which does smack more of chemical damage than heat damage. If it is heat damage, the plastic does not seem to be getting more brittle or baked, but it seems to be stretching because it is too soft. Are there any experts out there in plastic tempering? Could it be that Guzzi's tank source never tempered the plastic, or the tempering got ruined by the heat?????? Could the plastic be re-tempered? Obviously if people are getting visible warping damage, that is not really reversible, but if we could heat the tank, reshape it by vacuum or compression, and then quick cool it, and then put heavier insulation under it, maybe it is a reversible and curable problem for some of us?
Guest ratchethack Posted February 16, 2010 Posted February 16, 2010 Maybe. . . probably . . .probably . . .presumably. . . it seems. . .If it is. . . does not seem to. . . it seems to. . . Could it be. . . Could it. . . if. . . but if we could. . . maybe. . . a reversible and curable problem for some of us? Well, Dave. Maybe, probably, presumably, if we could take great wallopping blowtorches, and if we could maybe warm our gas tanks up nice and probably melty-hot , (maybe leave some fuel inside for presumably more spectacular effects!) then maybe, probably presumably, quickly dunk them in ice-water. . . Then maybe, presumably, probably, it seems if it could be that they might maybe come out presumably, probably different than they maybe seemed to be before! -- Just wild, empty, baseless and useless speculation shooting off in all directions, o' course. . . but maybe, probably, presumably -- could it be? But if only (maybe) possibly for some of us!!
dlaing Posted February 16, 2010 Posted February 16, 2010 Ratchet, have you been doing your neighbors dog lately? Yes, there are a lot of maybes etc. The truth is I don't know for sure whether this problem is caused by heat, but I am not pulling crap out of my ass and declaring it as fact when there is no substantial evidence for it being one specific thing over all others. Why do you have to be so arrogant and uncivil? Just because I push your buttons with my logic and counter your pseudo-science and right wing BULL? Maybe, probably, could be, NO! presumably!!! Presumably you have issues with me because I constantly counter your propaganda. You just hate that I am LIKELY absolutely right about ETHANOL not being the primary culprit. Visions of blow torch blowing up gas tanks! Great counter argument there, Darwin ol' buddy LOL! Come down from your purple planet and grasp reality, and don't do your bloody neighbor's dog!!!!
Guest ratchethack Posted February 16, 2010 Posted February 16, 2010 . . .I am not pulling crap out of my ass. . . Lemme guess. Nothing but rose petals comes out, right? And it doesn't stink, either, does it? Um, do I dare ask where your usual, err. . . great endless fountain of well grounded experience, fact-based knowledge and resources, faultlessly objective scientific analyses, and impeccable logic comes from, then? No. . . No, reckon I better not. . . If your usual crap DOES NOT come straight outta your ass, I don't really wanna know where it comes from, after all. . . NOTE: When you heat up your tank, Dave, be sure to put a vacuum on it when it gets soft and pliable -- (just before she sparks off). I'm sure it might, probably, presumably, could shrink right down to the exact same overall dimensions it had when it left Mandello. NOTE (Part II): Better yet, bake your tank in a preheated oven at 450F for 4 hours, basting liberally with Preparation H, and season to taste. This might probably presumably could be just the thing to maybe possibly shrink it down to original size.. When the swelling goes down You, too might probably, possibly smile again Hey -- It could happen -- somewhere, in the corner of a distant galaxy, far, far away. . .
motoguzznix Posted February 16, 2010 Posted February 16, 2010 You make me fear about the size of my fuel tank as ist is now almost 2 years off the bike because of my incident repair and other conversions. Will try soon if it still fits....
Ducman62 Posted February 17, 2010 Author Posted February 17, 2010 That is a great argument for Ethanol not being the culprit, but why do think the cause is a fuel additive and not heat? If you would talk with some small engine mechanics they will tell you that the ethanol is eating up or swelling the O-rings and gaskets in the weed wackers and carbs on lawn mowers. They say they have to rebuild them every 6 months for the lawn services here in Florida.
Guest ratchethack Posted February 17, 2010 Posted February 17, 2010 If you would talk with some small engine mechanics they will tell you that the ethanol is eating up or swelling the O-rings and gaskets in the weed wackers and carbs on lawn mowers. They say they have to rebuild them every 6 months for the lawn services here in Florida. Good point, Ducman. Wouldn't likely be the heat lately, would it? After all, as elsewhere across the planet, the average cold temps in Florida have been dropping low enough to decimate crops on an unprecedented scale, make the iguanas fall outta the trees -- croakin' 'em dead as a doornail -- and it's been snowing all the way down to Key West in recent years. . .
Greg Field Posted February 17, 2010 Posted February 17, 2010 Good point, Ducman. Wouldn't likely be the heat lately, would it? After all, as elsewhere across the planet, the average cold temps in Florida have been dropping low enough to decimate crops on an unprecedented scale, make the iguanas fall outta the trees -- croakin' 'em dead as a doornail -- and it's been snowing all the way down to Key West in recent years. . . They assume it's the ethanol. It may instead be something that's added along with the ethanol. I've got a lawnmower and a weedwhacker and a generator and a chainsaw that've been run on ethanol since the late 1990s and haven't had to rebuild the carbs on any of them. Maybe the gas companies don't add to cold Seattle's ethanol gas some chemical that's part of the additive pack added for warmer climates? In both cases, ethanol is in common but the problem is not. Why some refuse to look for any other possible cause should not surprise me.
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