Griso 8V tune-up

[belfastguzzi]

Some of you know the long tale of woe created by this 8V motor. So much damage caused by factory faults and useless dealers.

 

At last I've got the opportunity to put the basics right, as Pete has lent me an Axone. I've bought a 'carb' balancer too.

 

This afternoon, I started off by checking the valve gaps and then hoped to get the Axone plugged in. Things didn't go well...

 

 

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Started work by checking the valve gaps.

These were last set by the 'authorised service agent' because they were quite out of whack, after previously being set by the 'authorised service agent' when he did the cam replacement melarky. Not that many miles ago.

 

Gaps should be .1 and .15.

 

Well, right side inlet was .55, while the exhaust side gap - wasn't. I couldn't even get the smallest, 0.04 leaf into it. !!

 

Left side was slightly better(!), in that the inlet was .3 and the exhaust was .15 / .2

 

 

Pete, for the first time, I looked for the flywheel timing mark. What is it? Is it the little cast flange thing, on the right side through the hole:

 

You'll not be surprised to hear that more trouble follows.....

[belfastguzzi]

When I took the head covers off, they were pretty gunky with emulsion, but I expected that amount of yuk, or more. Interesting to see the rust in the plug hole, where the top of the inner steel tube is – as if these plugs aren't hard enough to get out as it is.

 

 

Cry butchery.

 

Four wide, flat headed screws with rubbery 'washers' keep the head covers on, and press a rubbery gasket between cover and head to make sure that the oil stays inside.

 

When I started to unscrew them – they were very tight.

Far too tight, I thought.

I know that oil can leak from these screws, but surely they didn't need to be forced down this hard? The first 2 broke out. Then the third came out – bringing the alloy threads from inside the head with it. Yes – these screws had been put in with far too much brutish force. This screw threads into the cage that holds the cam in place.

 

As I've had occasion to say before, this is not why I purchased a new Guzzi. This is the sort of thing that I found on old knackered Hondas that I bought when I was 18.

 

So I never did get plugging in the Axone. After settig the valve gaps and cleaning up a bit, I spent the rest of the afternoon/early evening making up a bodge to get the cover screwed down by the last couple of threads left at the end of that hole.

 

When I then put the left side back together, my finger touched against one of the 2 bolts holding the cam cage down onto the head. The bolt turned freely! It hadn't even been tightened when the cam was changed! Unbelievable.

Believable.

What else is undone and damaged (in addition to my previous finds)?

 

So, just in case, I unscrewed the right side cover again to check the bolts in there.

 

 

Ohh

Mama mia––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

[belfastguzzi]

Mama mia––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

 

All set to use groovy new plug pliers that Pete very kindly sent me (USA > AustriaLand > UK) but they don't fit in the space. You find that too Pete?

Note the rust stain.

 

Emulsion, or as someone on one of these forums thought, Lithium grease:

 

Blacker than I would like:

 

Note the 2 bolt heads in cam cage, top right corner:

 

One comes out, just like that, easy as pie. Not even the tiniest bit tight.

 

While a nice coil of alloy also comes out, just like that:

 

So I cut a bit of alu tube and cut down a spouting bolt and added a coupla washers and black sealant and the rubbery washer, hoping that a bit of extra length over the oe screw will be enough to catch the bottom couple of threads in the hole. Spit.

 

Spit. Spit.

 

Just to 'cap' it all off, when I lifted the stupid wee badge/screw cover to make the final fitment, I thought, hmmm... that leg (which holds the cover in place) is wobbly. That won't last long. It didn't.

[gstallons]

David,

Sorry to hear about "Christine".... Are there any priests in the area that perform excorcism on inanimate objects ?

The white sludge is what happens when oil/moisture combine in an engine. Sometimes riding habits contribute to this. You do not start the bike and let it idle for a while and shut it off? What type of crankcase vent system is on the Griso? As far as the loose cam housing capscrew goes , tighten every bolt you come in contact with. The stripped cover bolt will have to be repaired with a "Heli-coil" thread repair. Snap-On or any tool vendor sells a smaller plier to remove the spark plug boot. You can use a silicone-dialectric grease on the spark plug boot to make it easier to remove the next time.

[belfastguzzi]

David,

Sorry to hear about "Christine".... Are there any priests in the area that perform excorcism on inanimate objects ?

The white sludge is what happens when oil/moisture combine in an engine. Sometimes riding habits contribute to this. You do not start the bike and let it idle for a while and shut it off? What type of crankcase vent system is on the Griso? As far as the loose cam housing capscrew goes , tighten every bolt you come in contact with. The stripped cover bolt will have to be repaired with a "Heli-coil" thread repair. Snap-On or any tool vendor sells a smaller plier to remove the spark plug boot. You can use a silicone-dialectric grease on the spark plug boot to make it easier to remove the next time.

The emulsion can't be avoided. Too many short journeys. The bike (or the car) doesn't get warmed up by the time I get to work.So just have to live with that.

[pete roper]

Oh for fucks sakes!

 

This is bloody absurd. Who is this fucking idiot that got into your bike???

 

Doccument it all and get onto the importer, the trades council or whoever and anyone else you can and try and get some sort of resollution. This is just absurd. The butchery is so obvuous and manifest you MUST have some sort of recourse surely.

 

While obviously less than ideal the cambox threads can be helicoiled but I'd at this point be pushing for a refund and/or replacement of the bike. Personally given the history of things having been thoroughly rooted by the idiot who was supposed to be working on it I'd say you have a very good case for getting at least a new motor. Who knows what else Captain @#!#$#-knucle has bodged or destroyed and there is still the issue of how much crap went through the oil pump after TWO sets of tappets grenaded in it!

 

What makes this so monumentally distressing for me is that I've been trying so hard to convince you what a fantastic bike the 8V is. AND IT IS!!!! But no amount of greatness can compete with rampant incompetence and idiocy! How can Guzzi expect to sell ANY bikes in Ireland, North or South, while this is the level of mechanical expertise being exhibited by their one 'Dealer'. I only wish I was closer. I'd love to pull that poor thing to bits just to seehow rooted it is. I mean??? I've had heads off an 8V now and am thoroughly conversant with most of the *new* motor and I see a well designed, simple, strong, easily understood and repaired engine that really takes a LOT of effort to screw up. Yet here is yours with stripped bolts, loose head bolts and God alone knows what else buggered in it.

 

Jesus H.Christ on a Bicycle, with two flat tyres, twenty missing spokes and no bloody saddle!!!!!

 

Pete

[Dave K]

Hi Dave,

 

Where did you buy your bike, i've been toying with the idea of buying a new griso? Was is Colraine or Colton?

 

and on an off note, thanks for your help with the pawl spring settings, got it sorted in the end.

 

Dave

[belfastguzzi]

I bought it in RR, in Lisburn. They went out of business at the beginning of last year.

I then had to deal with Coleraine, who have been diabolically awful.

 

Clifton Auto / The Motorcycle Centre has a new Griso for sale.

[macguzzi]

I think you need to send your local heavies round with a torque wrench or car b**b

[belfastguzzi]

MacEuan: I know you weren't sure to be free, but any more thoughts on getting over for the end of May meet here?

[belfastguzzi]

On to the electronics at last. I'm sure that Pete is mad that I haven't made progress yet, but without going into a long story, I'll just say that work has been difficult. No time off, including holidays – St Patrick's Day or Easter – and any time that I have had for fiddling, I've had to fix problems that have arisen with family cars. This morning I at last found what is wrong with the latest problem, a Renault (spit) diesel and as it is the May bank holiday weekend, I am now taking some time to move on to the Griso.

 

Bike, as people know, has been running badly since recall cam/tappet wreckage and replacement and only made worse the couple of times that it has gone to MG 'service agent'.

Apart from anything else, I'm only getting a consistent 70/71 miles to a tank of fuel and the display says 17m.p.g. consumption – which is atrocious.

 

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With Axone connected, the first problem is obvious.

The throttle position is 8.8 degrees and it should be 4.6 or so (isn't that right?).

 

The first job that I wanted to do was to get the 'sacred screw' back to an approximately correct position, using the Axone readout to go back to 4.6.

I know the screw has been upset, but as the TPS has never been reset nor anything else adjusted, I had high hopes of getting the screw setting back.

However, looking at the throttle linkage adjuster, it looks like it has been turned. Why? I don't know. So my plans are derailed at the first step.

 

Working with both screws, I can't get the TP below 8.7 degrees (idle on hot engine). This is even with the sacred screw backed right off beyond where it has no effect.

 

When I started the work with a cold engine, it was 8.8 at 900 rpm (12.2 at 3,000).

 

What does this mean?

Am I missing something?

How can I get the tps down to 4.6

 

I need to get a better base position before I to a tps reset. Don't I?

[Skeeve]

 

The first job that I wanted to do was to get the 'sacred screw' back to an approximately correct position, using the Axone readout to go back to 4.6. I know the screw has been upset, but as the TPS has never been reset nor anything else adjusted, I had high hopes of getting the screw setting back. However, looking at the throttle linkage adjuster, it looks like it has been turned. Why? I don't know. So my plans are derailed at the first step.

 

Working with both screws, I can't get the TP below 8.7 degrees (idle on hot engine). This is even with the sacred screw backed right off beyond where it has no effect.

 

When I started the work with a cold engine, it was 8.8 at 900 rpm (12.2 at 3,000).

 

What does this mean?

Am I missing something?

How can I get the tps down to 4.6

 

I need to get a better base position before I to a tps reset. Don't I?

 

It means your Guzzi "service agent" has been an even bigger f!ckup than you thought?

 

How about this: follow the procedure for a TPS reset for the v11 series, disconnecting everything, backing off, backprobing the leads to read millivolts, etc. etc. See what you get for your baseline. If it reads correctly [150mV?], proceed to do the rest of the setup. If it doesn't read correctly, use your Axone there to zero things out to the correct values. Either way, proceed w/ the rest of the throttle setup according to Micha's method or what have you. When you get to where it should be correct, check w/ your Axone again, & zero things to where they should be, and call it a day. Go for a test ride, & see what results you get.

 

I suspect that after a few iterations of ride/test/repeat & fiddling w/ the "holy screw," you can get things back to where they should be, repaint your "holy screw" & only need to use the Axone to reset your TPS periodically from then on.

 

Obviously, you won't be taking it back to your "screwup agent" again unless you an urge similar to throwing money in the river...

 

I'm sure Pete will correct me if I'm wrong once he has a chance, but I noticed in another thread that he's had a death in the family so he's otherwise occupied right now...

[pete roper]

The problem is that the idiot who was supposed to be servicing it #@$&@#@ about with the 'Sacred Screw' It now also seems as if he has #@$&@#@ about with the throttle linkage too so we have to get the thing back to, or close to, the original settings.

 

OK first thing. Ballance the TB's. It is unlikely that said 'Tard knew the location of the air bleeds and they are tricky to adjust anyway so it would probably of been beyond his ken. So, step one. Set tappets. Step two. Connect up the vacuum guages or twinmax to the ports on the inlet manifolds and with the engine warm get the TB's ballanced using the linkage rod at 3,000RPM. This will require holding the throttle slightly open which means the stepper is no longer relevant. Once you have the TB's ballanced at 3,000 you'll probably find that they are VERY close at idle as long as the aforementioned fuckwad hasn't pissed about with the air bleeds which as I said is unlikely. Now see where Axone says the TPS is sitting at and using the 'Sacred Screw. The throttle stop screw on the left hand TB. adjust it back so that it sits back at 4.6 degrees.

 

All of the 8V engined bikes I have dealt with, Grisos and Stelvios, have come out of the factory with their TB's pretty much spot on and their TPS's set correctly. As long as the idiot hasn't used the Axone or Navigator to re-set the TPS at any point, (And I believe you've said that this is highly unlikely.) then this will just 'Reverse Engineer' all the previous adjustments and get you back in the ballpark so you can start near enough from scratch.

 

Give it a go and get back to me.

 

Pete

[belfastguzzi]

Obviously, you won't be taking it back to your "screwup agent" again unless you an urge similar to throwing money in the river...

 

I will never, ever, ever be going that way again! Of course the warranty parts that he had supposedly ordered a year ago have still never arrived: I may just fight that one with Piaggio – and then probably give up. I was speaking to someone who ordered parts - paid the deposit money. The parts never came in. He has given up (on parts and his money) and will never go back. We are not the only ones of course. The same bikes are still sitting there, that were for sale 2 years ago. For sure, that place will close.

[pete roper]

I'm sure Pete will correct me if I'm wrong once he has a chance, but I noticed in another thread that he's had a death in the family so he's otherwise occupied right now...

 

 

Thanks Skeve. Yes. Jude's much loved and missed Mum died. Not unexpected but still harrowing. S'all good now, we burnt her last week. Now its just dealing with the legals which unfortunately all devolves to us as the other executor, Jude's sister, is about as much use as a latex glass-cutter.

 

While I'll x-post replies here if people want I'll probably mainly be helping Dave, if I can, through the Gloomy board for the simple reason that V11.com is very, very slow on my 'pooter.

 

This si such a huge, olympic standard f@ckup by the supposed 'Technician' involved it begars belief! What really worries me more though is I'm getting increasing feedback and reports from other people in the UK that even some of the long established and highly respoected dealers simply don't have any staff who have the faintest idea as to how the W5.9 equipped bikes work and are relying on the old fallback of "Oh we never plug in the diagnostics unless there's something wrong." routine to cover their ignorance. The fact that Dave has also been consistently given the bum's rush by the importer is also deeply troubling and means that at the end of the day he's been left with a VERY expensive motorbike that has been wantonly screwed up by an idiot purporting to be an 'Official Service Agent' and a now expired warranty. The real tragedy is that the 8v motor and the Griso as a platform for it IS superb! In my mind it is without a doubt the BEST Guzzi to have been produced in damn near thirty years, certainly in a quarter of a century, and to have the experience of ownership so comprehensively screwed up by ignorance and idiocy just HAS to be a very bitter pill to swallow.

 

Pete

 

Pete