V11 sport transmission locked up

[GuzziMoto]

I have three Guzzi's that have Redline Shockproof in them and have had no issues nor do I know anyone who has had issues.

[guido]

I had a similar incident a couple of years ago. Brand new bike and the rear wheel locked up. Turned out that one of the gears on the secondary lower shaft had locked itself to the shaft momentarily, and as I changed down from 6 to 5th it locked up.

Only found out a while later as the gearbox was taken to pieces to replace the recall shift ring. There is a post somewhere on this.

Initially I thought it was a tank slapper. Luckily I survived and apart from the wounds my ego suffered most!

Recently I had a broken shift ring on my other V11, one third simply parted company and fell to the bottom of the box. This time it didn't lock up, because the piece could fall safely to the bottom.

 

These fearboxes (!) are dangerous, no doubt about it. And the help from Moto Guzi. Nada! Nix. Nothing.

 

I still drive Guzzis, and I have for many years. And I like the V11, however you take your life in your hands when driving this particular model from a potential failure you can do NOTHING about. No warning, no remedy, pure luck!

I don't think it is worth it.

[Paul Minnaert]

Easy to see what it looks inside is when you take of the starter engine, and get the cover of the gearbox. First get oil out :-)

The scura boxes are outside any recall range. Only thing known to happen often, is that the sping breaks, inside the cover. But that doesn't lead to a lockup.

 

The final drive can be a problem to, but they are very robust. Other than the small nosebearing I've not seen anything there.

[guzzi323]

Trying to respond to a number of comments in this single response.

 

I know it's not the flywheel because I've already replaced it with a standard twin plate Guzzi clutch.

I'm aware of the the need to align the drive shaft halves and believe that I've done it properly the last time I had them apart,though I will check that prior to disassembly.

 

I hope to tear into it this weekend. Once it's up on the work table I'll drain the oil and pull the side cover off the tranny.

I imagine at that point I'll be able to post some lovely pictures of some sort of mechanical destruction.

I'm hoping since it happened at a relatively low speed there wasn't a lot of collateral damage.

 

I've owned it since new and the only time the transmission has been opened is for a shifter spring replacement. That was done under warranty about 55-60K miles ago so I doubt it's anything they did wrong back then.

 

We shall see.

[Baldini]

...I know it's not the flywheel....

 

I was hoping it would be the clutch cos at least then it'd be something we knew about....

 

It always concerned me that Guzzi chose to completely redesign the (new to the) V11 6 speed box for the latest generation bikes. After all, it's usually a job they do every 20 yrs - makes me wonder what they knew.

 

Let us know what you find John.

 

Made me think this tho - people pop up on this forum over the years - I've never met John & maybe never will, but seems like he's an old friend. Thanks for providing for that Jaap.

 

KB

[NakedV]

 

 

These fearboxes (!) are dangerous, no doubt about it. And the help from Moto Guzi. Nada! Nix. Nothing.

 

I still drive Guzzis, and I have for many years. And I like the V11, however you take your life in your hands when driving this particular model from a potential failure you can do NOTHING about. No warning, no remedy, pure luck!

I don't think it is worth it.

 

 

 

As a matter of genuine interest.

 

How many V11 produced to date with the "Fearbox"?

How many documented cases of sudden lock up as described by OP?

How many of these 'documented' cases were definately atributed to crap design/manufacture?

 

Given the litigation obssesive society we live in, if the V11 is as genuinely lethal as suggested, how come MG hasn't been sued into extinction? How come the powers that be haven't just banned their import?

 

If I believed the V11 was as fundementally flawed as is suggested, I'd destroy mine (I'd not want anyone else's death on my conscience) and buy something else. I've a wife and kids to think of. Hell if they're as bad as is suggested here I suggest MG have no right whatso ever to still be producing Motorcycles. Mick.

[pete roper]

As a matter of genuine interest.

 

How many V11 produced to date with the "Fearbox"?

 

 

The only boxes with a problem I knew of were the very early ones and there was a recall on those for?? The selector dogs or some such I believe? I personally have seen very few problems with the 'Old' six speed. It has to me seemed to be a very good, reliable thing. The odd leak here and there and they rend to crack cases if the bike is in a prang but *mechanically* I've seen nothing to single them out as 'Widowmakers'!

 

Pete

[guzzi323]

Well I believe Pete's initial thought was correct.

Thanks for being here Pete or I might not of noted the driveshaft position before removing.

Though I must take responsibility because I was the last guy to work on it, I must say the alignment marks are a bit ambiguous.

 

Here's the position it was in.

 

And this is with the shaft halves assembled with on the next spline.

 

 

You can see that the paint mark on the right side never really aligns with the left, though with these nice, clear benchtop views it is apparent that the second position is closer to correct.

 

Here's another view of how I assembled them.

 

 

And how I believe they should have been assembled.

 

 

Looking at the yokes it's apparent that neither position actually does a really good job of aligning them which brings up my question of since neither one is truly correct, should I be replacing the driveshaft of is the closer one good enough?

I'd really prefer to only go through this once.

 

Which brings us to part 2 of the saga.

I haven't completely disassembled the transmission yet but I have a good idea of the damage.

The rear bearing on the upper secondary shaft went out.

When the bearing went it took out part of the rear transmission case.

Pete, is this a typical of the damage when the yokes are out of alignment?

 

 

You can see the missing piece sitting on the bench.

My thought is the case isn't worth repairing.

 

Looking through the side cover I wasn't able to see much more damage but I'm guessing that's enough to warrant looking for a new transmission.

So at this point I have two questions for you.

 

1) Anybody got a V11 6 speed transmission for sale?

2) I'm open to opinions on that driveshaft alignment. Is 'better than I had it' good enough or should I be replacing it?

Seeing as I found out my company is closing and I'll be looking for work in a couple of months I'd rather avoid buying more than I need. (The u-joints feel feel great after 65k miles, so there's some good news)

 

For me, the moral of the story is "If your driveshaft alignment marks aren't entirely clear enough for you, pull the shaft off the bike and paint your own marks."

 

Thank you all for you time and thoughts on this.

Time for some of these :bier: :bier:

johnk

[NakedV]

Glad you got to the bottom of it. Right Royal pain in the Arse it might be, But the bike'll get fixed one way or the other, Main thing is you walked away from it. Take care and good luck with the repairs. Mick.

[pete roper]

The misalignment will cause constant loading and unloading of the shafts but a case failure isn't waht I'd expect. Usually it is things like the cages of the bearings that will fail in these circumstances. In this case I have no brilliant ideas what caused the failure. Imperfect casting would seem the obvious one but it looks to me to be simple bad luck rather than anything sheetable home to a definite 'Mechanical' cause.

 

And yes. I'd suggest it would be cheaper to look for a 2nd hand transmission than to fart about with that one.

 

Pete

[Admin Jaap]

RebootGuzzispares has some V11 breakers at the moment. (Not shown on their site, but I got an email saying they had)

[guido]

The only boxes with a problem I knew of were the very early ones and there was a recall on those for?? The selector dogs or some such I believe? I personally have seen very few problems with the 'Old' six speed. It has to me seemed to be a very good, reliable thing. The odd leak here and there and they rend to crack cases if the bike is in a prang but *mechanically* I've seen nothing to single them out as 'Widowmakers'!

 

Pete

The funny thing is that the one box, the first, was under re-call. It had about 1100km on it when the accident occured. The lock up had nothing to do with the re-call though, it was a fusion of a gear to the shaft. The fault was only dectecable as I took the box apart.

The last failure was indeed a broken shift ring! but on a box long out of re-call!!

As for the reputation of the boxes, I am not saying that each box will necessarily break. I actually think only a few incidences of this are taking place, but how many might have taken place without being recognized as such? My experience migt be unique, but I doubt it.

Whichever way we look at it, it should never happen. It has never happened to any of my other Guzzis, and I drive them more often.

I think there is a problem. I think Moto Guzzi thinks the same. Of all the boxes I have tried, these are the most accurate, the most silent during shift and the most precise. If all was well, why introduce the new box as on the Breva, which is MARKEDLY inferior to the V11 in all respects mentioned above.

There can only be one good reason, the V11 box is flawed.

As for driving the V11, you have a very small chance of someting going wrong, but you have that whether you like it or not. And there is nothing you can do, even as the best driver in the world, if the box locks up on you, you are in the hands of the gods.

[guido]

 

As for the damage visible in the picture, I am not sure that it is caused by a seized bearing, it looks more like bending/impact to me. But let's see what is still hidden. Also I don't like the colour of your oil, but that may be Redline, which I don't know.

If your lower secondary shaft is intact, I am still hunting for one of those. Complete shaft.

As for your alignments on the shaft, that small movement will be of very little consequence, I would have thought. There can be two issues I can see, balance and angular movement. Being out one spline will not affect it seriously.

 

Let us know what you find.

[pete roper]

 

As for your alignments on the shaft, that small movement will be of very little consequence, I would have thought. There can be two issues I can see, balance and angular movement. Being out one spline will not affect it seriously.

 

 

 

People say this. They say it a lot. It pisses me off. Why. Because the amount it is out of true DOES of course have an effect and the smaller the amount out of true the less the effect. BUT there is also the impact of the shaft angle. Once again the greater this is the greater the loads imposed. Add in all the other loadings imposed by the system and simply RIDING DOWN THE ROAD and the forces imposed on the entire driveline are substantial. I've seen pinion splines twisted off on more than one occasion. I've seen a plethora of gear pinion, UJ and bearing cage damage on bikes that have habitually been run with their trunnions misaligned but at the same time I have seen NO torsional related failures on bikes which have a confirmed history of CORRECT trunnion allignment.

 

OK, I'm full of shit and am not an engineer and therefore I haven't a clue what I'm talking about. You want to think that driveshaft alignment is a small and inconsequential issue? Knock yerselves out. Like I give a f@ck. It's your lives you're playing with, not mine. Remember. I have seen and see LOTS of bikes. About 2 out of 3 V11 Guzzis I see have their driveshafts misaligned. INVARIABLY with 100% feedback, people for whom I've pointed it out and fixed it say there is a noticeable improvement in suspension compliance.

 

OK, so say that an average rider weighs 100KG. Then add in half the bike, another 100KG, then add in the forces acting on the entire system every time the suspension goes up and down and the fact that every time the shaft turns through 180 degrees these forces are going to load up one way and then the other imposing loads that SHOULDN'T be imposed if the system is assembled properly. At speed this will be happening many times a second. You work it out......

 

I simply can't be arsed any more.

 

Pete

[guido]

People say this. They say it a lot. It pisses me off. Why. Because the amount it is out of true DOES of course have an effect and the smaller the amount out of true the less the effect. BUT there is also the impact of the shaft angle. Once again the greater this is the greater the loads imposed. Add in all the other loadings imposed by the system and simply RIDING DOWN THE ROAD and the forces imposed on the entire driveline are substantial. I've seen pinion splines twisted off on more than one occasion. I've seen a plethora of gear pinion, UJ and bearing cage damage on bikes that have habitually been run with their trunnions misaligned but at the same time I have seen NO torsional related failures on bikes which have a confirmed history of CORRECT trunnion allignment.

 

OK, I'm full of shit and am not an engineer and therefore I haven't a clue what I'm talking about. You want to think that driveshaft alignment is a small and inconsequential issue? Knock yerselves out. Like I give a f@ck. It's your lives you're playing with, not mine. Remember. I have seen and see LOTS of bikes. About 2 out of 3 V11 Guzzis I see have their driveshafts misaligned. INVARIABLY with 100% feedback, people for whom I've pointed it out and fixed it say there is a noticeable improvement in suspension compliance.

 

OK, so say that an average rider weighs 100KG. Then add in half the bike, another 100KG, then add in the forces acting on the entire system every time the suspension goes up and down and the fact that every time the shaft turns through 180 degrees these forces are going to load up one way and then the other imposing loads that SHOULDN'T be imposed if the system is assembled properly. At speed this will be happening many times a second. You work it out......

 

I simply can't be arsed any more.

 

Pete

Go easy on the stuff you are smoking Pete. I said that the effect would not be great, I stand by that. If you want to argue, do so. If you think the failure is caused by the misalignment, fine.

I don't.