Using a wideband O2 sensor

[felix42o]

So I've been following the discussions on all the fuel managment options, and have a question on the use of a wideband sensor in general: Is a wideband O2 sensor, in conjunction with an AFR gauge, a worthwhile investment for tweaking a power commander map, or is it better to just pay for dyno tuning? In other words, is it as simple as going for a decent air-fuel ratio throughout the range or am I oversimplifying it?

[raz]

It is that simple. But only you knows what is better. Doing it myself is better to me, but I like the endless tweaking. Many don't. If you want to immediately get a good map, a dyno run does that for you in an hour or two.

 

What a dyno center will do, is go for that air-fuel ratio. So they do the same thing, except they have a rolling road and hopefully years of experience. And automated map changes. The major difference is how long it takes.

[felix42o]

It is that simple. But only you knows what is better. Doing it myself is better to me, but I like the endless tweaking. Many don't. If you want to immediately get a good map, a dyno run does that for you in an hour or two.

 

What a dyno center will do, is go for that air-fuel ratio. So they do the same thing, except they have a rolling road and hopefully years of experience. And automated map changes. The major difference is how long it takes.

 

I am also assuming, due to the difference in pricing, that a narrow band sensor will not- is this more or less correct? I've done all the work on my bikes, but am still trying to get smart w/ the mapping. Would rather not pay for dyno tuning if I don't have to. Thanks, raz.

[gstallons]

I am also assuming, due to the difference in pricing, that a narrow band sensor will not- is this more or less correct? I've done all the work on my bikes, but am still trying to get smart w/ the mapping. Would rather not pay for dyno tuning if I don't have to. Thanks, raz.

 

 

You and your bike will be happier if you dyno tune.

[GuzziMoto]

A narrow band sensor is about worthless as a tuning aid (or anything else for that matter, they have no resolution). A wide band sensor is a good tool that can be used to tune the injection system. But like any tool it is only as good as the user. You can use it to tune the air/fuel ratio, but with out a dyno to figure out what the best air/fuel ratio is you are guessing.

That said, I too am in the "do it yourself" camp and enjoy doing things like that myself. But it is a lot of trial and error to get it as well as a good dyno operator can get it. But "good" dyno operators are sometimes hard to find. Too many of them don't put the required time and effort into it. You can do it yourself better then that.

[felix42o]

So then maybe a little of both is in order. Food for thought. I just hate paying shop rates for much of anything. Thanks for the input, all.

[gstallons]

So then maybe a little of both is in order. Food for thought. I just hate paying shop rates for much of anything. Thanks for the input, all.

 

 

Find someone you have confidence in and you wil be paying for value.

[raz]

Here's a report from a former member who did it himself and later went to a dyno. He used a MyECU instead of a PCIII but that doesn't change much. Most dynos around here are the interia type like he used.

[felix42o]

Here's a report from a former member who did it himself and later went to a dyno. He used a MyECU instead of a PCIII but that doesn't change much. Most dynos around here are the interia type like he used.

 

 

Yes, I remember reading that. I had been following these threads and waiting for a distilled thought process on the subject. I think probably a few runs on the dyno won't hurt if I can find a good operator, and I will probably invest in a wide-band set-up for the fine tuning and tinker factor. I know that, at the moment, the mapping is far from good on the V11 since the switch to pods and FBF cans down here in San Diego. I'm just not ready to pay for a blind fix without some better knowledge on the product I'm paying for. Particularly since I could care less about peak power-I'm more interested in a clean powerband.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I have to ask, just exactly what is a wide band O2 sensor and how do we apply it?

[luhbo]

A narrow band sensor knows only 1 AFR and that's exactly Lambda 1. Else from that it can only say rich or lean. That's the type of sensor usually used in motorbikes and cars of ours' age. It's useless for tuning purposes

A wideband sensor instead can give exact values, like ARF 12.0, 13.5, 14.7 and so on.

 

About dyno or not: I say not. Especially not if you talk about Dynoresearch and Powercommanders. They're using the dyno just as a brake for getting an ARF curve as basis for the PC correction map. Basically exactly the same a My15M, an Optimiser and some days fun onroad can do.

 

If you're keen on getting smart with EFI then the My15M might give you what you want.

 

Hubert

[gstallons]

I took a 4 hr class on O2 sensors last year. I will dig up my notes and try to give you some useful info.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I took a 4 hr class on O2 sensors last year. I will dig up my notes and try to give you some useful info.

A 4 hour class, that makes you the expert then

Seriously, that would be great. I have done some work with Oxygen sensors

but that was for boiler control, same idea I suppose.

The question is how do you apply one of these sensors, do you have to purchase a special meter

or can you just jury up a circuit and measure mV out of it. For sure my ECU doesn't have an

input for one. It sounds like something I can use to adjust the Power Commander map.

 

Roy

[gstallons]

A 4 hour class, that makes you the expert then

Seriously, that would be great. I have done some work with Oxygen sensors

but that was for boiler control, same idea I suppose.

The question is how do you apply one of these sensors, do you have to purchase a special meter

or can you just jury up a circuit and measure mV out of it. For sure my ECU doesn't have an

input for one. It sounds like something I can use to adjust the Power Commander map.

 

Roy

 

This instructor was a representative for NGK/NTK. He was a (sic) evangelical Pentecost preacher. I never met a man more enthused about oxygen sensors in my entire life. He started with Walther Nernst's philosophy and worked his way to the current ( I think) 4 different styles or types of sensors.

I want to get my training material/notes together rather than trust my memory. If I can't help you decide what to do I think I still have his business card. You can reach him to help with what you want to know.

I found his card, but i can't find my training material. Ralph D.Harris, NGK Spark Plugs Inc. email address is rharris@ngksparkplugs.com . I hope he is still available, he is very a very exciting person to communicate with.

In the meantime here is something to get you started thinking. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_sensor

[gstallons]

This is the condensed version; Please don't fall asleep.

#1 there are zirconia(90% of the market) and titania sensors. A rule of thumb= zirconia has 18mm thread size and titania has 12mm and sometimes 18mm thread.

 

#2 there are 4 styles of zirconia; 1 wire,which the sensor shell is grounded to the pipe and the signal return wire goes to the PCM. 2 wire where the other wire is grounded to a better ground. 3 wire which has a signal return and two heater wires with the shell being grounded. 4 wire with the 4th wire providing ground to a better source. EVERYONE understand this, a ground is equally important in a circuit.

#3 the titania is the sensor is the more critical sensor. It is always a 3 or 4 wire device which would mean they are always heated. The 4 wire AFR (this term is used by Ford on some sensors)is similar to an oxygen sensor. It uses current in the decision making process. It watches to see how much current is required to maintain 300mv across a circuit. This is "simiar" to a mass air flow sensor. Reference or ambient air is not required for the operation of this device. This sensor measures a/f ratio from 10:1 to 18:1.

#4 for the big one. The wide band sensor. This will be a 5 wire sensor. It measures with a highest degree of accuracy a/f ratio. This sensor requires a seperate pre-programmed controller to maintain a specific (usually 14.7:1) a/f ratio. The controller then sends a signal to the PCM for fuel trim adjustments.

Wide band sensors and AFR sensors are not interchangeable.

 

Everyone understand that the wide band sensor appears to need a seperate controller to function.

 

p.s. understand that heated sensors start "working" quicker because the sensor has to be (I think) 800 deg f. to start working.