Mid-ride cut-out

[ScuRoo]

Been looking for post's referring to similar problems but not having too much luck at moment. Could any of you fella's help?

In June on 1st big bonding trip, did 3000 hard miles thru the Pyrenees on my Scura R (now with just over 5000 miles). Bike did not miss a BEAT! Bewdy. (Even felt as if it was loosening up some by end of trip).

Now, last 2 small rides out - steadily riding along anywhere between 40-80mph & bike cuts out suddenly and unexpectedly. Couple of times managed to roll start before coming to a complete halt, and other times bike refused to fire. Getting dangerous now as yesterday whilst passing a van and - cut! - almost got hung out to dry.

So, booked it in for service next week but would like to pass on any 'forum collective knowledge' hints or tips to Bikersworld of (electrical?) things to check or (sensibly) replace in order to most likely cure problem.

Any learned guidance or first-hand experience with solution sought.

Cheers fella's! Jay

P.s. Please keep things simple for this guzzi acolyte as I'm really looking for the "top 3 or 4 most likely's..."

[Kiwi_Roy]

I would check relays 4 & 5 for sure if either of these is bad it will stop you in your tracks at the least move these 2 to another spot. Look at the FAQ - "Relay Base Repair" that explains how to get the contacts out.

Could be your sidestand switch also.

Connect a small lamp to the hot terminal of a coil and ground, have it up at the bars where you can see it go off if it cuts out again. I have a 12V LED I poke through the hole in handbrake lever. I just jamb the wire in a relay socket or wherever I suspect.

Intermittent faults can be very hard to pin down, I have 40+ years of practice, but I still find it hard sometimes.

Good Luck

Roy

[ScuRoo]

Thanks Roy for your first suggestion! I'm really by nature kinda one of those cost:time calculating impatient types, so I'm gunna just tell the service guy to change the relays just as a matter of course. So, what 'best' relay make should be bought in changing naturally begs the next question.

 

Secondly, whilst I appreciate the right diagnostic & probably $cheapest way of your next suggestion; that ain't gunna happen in the top '3 or 4' things I'm really likely to do in the short term vis a vis jamming a wire up its clacker (not proud saying so - just being honest here). So, in just ASSUMING the sidestand switch IS at fault - what 'superior' switch/repair should be bought/done to just go ahead and fix it?

Timewise, I'd rather just pay a little bit of extra money out too cover off any PESKY possible bases first, and if there is still a problem after all that, well...

I'll probably be ground down in time, methinks! Once again, thanks Roy.

Cheers! Jay

 

Anymore pesky-type 'precautionary principle' low-cost solutions to be considered chap's?

[Kiwi_Roy]

I'll stand back and let someone else with more experience step in

[ScuRoo]

O'kay Roy, I'm not knocking anything you say. Ah's is only trying to get me here some learning.

Eating into zed's looking but found this below on a way earlier posting with regards to sidestand.

And, seems like omrons or MGR-C20 series relays are the way to go if upgrading relays.

Other tips or hints certainly welcome for clearing roo's!

Cheers! Jay

 

From: Dan Prunuske

Date: Thu Oct 9, 2003 8:58:48 PM US/Pacific

To: MGCL@topica.com

Subject: V11 Sport Wiring vs Relays

 

Dave Laing recently contacted me regarding a failed Bosch starter relay on his V11 Sport. He thought the problem was that the Normally Closed terminal of the starter relay powered the headlights, not merely the coil of the headlight relay. I was skeptical (who would be so stupid?), but after checking the wiring diagram, he is correct. Worse, that terminal (rated at 10 amps) also powers the brake lights, the tach, the horn, some of the instrument lights, and is the reference voltage for the GEN lite! Arrrrgh. The high beam and the brake lights alone are about 9 amps, and imho, too much load on a 10 amp contact. (My normal rule of thumb is to use a relay capable of twice the anticipated load).

 

So you ask, what controls the headlight relay? The stupid sidestand safety switch! Arrrgh. Nice going Guzzi. There is no horn relay - full current goes thru the switch. Loverly. Another buck saved.

 

What to do? I'd suggest:

 

1. Install a horn relay. It's tolerable that this relay's coil is powered thru the headlight relay, but it's horn current should come from a fuse, not from the headlight relay.

 

2. Remove the white/green wire from terminal 87a of the starter relay and run it instead to Fuse 5 (this is the headlight power). Disconnect the orange/blue wire from terminal 85 of the headlight relay. Run a wire from terminal 85 of the headlight relay to terminal 87a of the starter relay. Now the only load on terminal 87a (the Normally Closed terminal) of the starter relay will be the coil for the headlight relay. The difference is now the headlight will still operate if the sidestand is down.

 

Edit 10/12/03 Forget this option.(2.) After posting this, we discovered that it will not work....so go with option one or something else, like a higher rated relay, or a strategically wired additional relay.

Until you fix this issue, avoid using the horn and the high beam flasher.

And for what it is worth, the headlight is not deactivated by the kick stand switch.

 

No doubt there are other improvements that could be made to this crappy wiring layout. For example, I'd be inclined to get at least the brake lights out of the headlight circuit. My mods suggested above should greatly extend the life of the starter relay. BTW, they are made on the assumption that the bike is actually wired as shown on the diagram. Bwa, ha, ha!

 

Carl, may I presume that terminal 86 of the headlight relay is grounded? It's not shown as such on your diagram.

 

Does anyone know which other relays on this model seem failure prone?

 

Cheers,

Dan

[Kiwi_Roy]

O'kay Roy, I'm not knocking anything you say. Ah's is only trying to get me here some learning.

 

That's OK SkuRoo, "What offends me woulld kill most" I just stepped back to see if someone with a lot more Guzzi experience was going to step in.

 

((((( Update August 12th

Someone like Docc for instance, see post No 15

A few simple tests instead of jumping in with both feet and doing so many things you never know what it was that fixed it ))))).

 

Since they didn't heres a file that shows the essential wiring.

Guzzi_Wiring July 21 2010.pdf

[Kiwi_Roy]

Heres the same drawing I have highlighed to show what's needed to make the bike run.

I have shown a lamp on the right hand side (I use a 12V LED). With this on the bars if your bike so much as stutters you can see if any of the highlighted stuff to the left failed. If it does then you move the lamp connection point further left thus zeroing in on the fault. It's much easier troubleshooting an intermittent fault this way instead of waiting for it to fail then pulling out your meter.

 

I also sketched on Dan's note 2, I can't see why it didn't work.

 

When you get more time I suggest you add a new fuse with a heavy gauge wire to the headlight area. Use a couple of your old relays for High and Low beam this brightens up your night no end as it bypasses lots of wires and contacts.

Raz gave me a circuit using a pair of relays & a pair of diodes thats real nifty.

You don't need bases for the relays, just spade connectors.

 

BTW, you didn't say what you did to get going again after the total failure, that might be a valuable clue.

Cheers

Roy

[ScuRoo]

Good man, Roy!

Well, twice it fired right up before I'd come to a complete halt roll-starting, twice started up fine with start button - but the last time I had to do 3 or 4 feeble wiggle and shakes on all wires and switches on bars, under-seat and up/down of sidestand.

Eight or 9 attempts with starter button and sounding as if it would'nt fire thinking of pushing. Hit it again and vroom, it's going again perfectly within half a second turnover as if nothing ever was wrong! Like my missus, come to think of it.

[pasotibbs]

Good man, Roy!

Well, twice it fired right up before I'd come to a complete halt roll-starting, twice started up fine with start button - but the last time I had to do 3 or 4 feeble wiggle and shakes on all wires and switches on bars, under-seat and up/down of sidestand.

Eight or 9 attempts with starter button and sounding as if it would'nt fire thinking of pushing. Hit it again and vroom, it's going again perfectly within half a second turnover as if nothing ever was wrong! Like my missus, come to think of it.

When mine did this turning the kill switch off and on again restarted the engine, I swapped the relays around and the fault did not return on my next ride, so I put switch cleaner in the suspect relays (there is a small hole on the underside)and swapped them back and as yet the fault has not returned.Most faults like this are relays but the side stand, clutch switch and ign switch wiring have all given people here issues.

[Kiwi_Roy]

When mine did this turning the kill switch off and on again restarted the engine, I swapped the relays around and the fault did not return on my next ride, so I put switch cleaner in the suspect relays (there is a small hole on the underside)and swapped them back and as yet the fault has not returned.Most faults like this are relays but the side stand, clutch switch and ign switch wiring have all given people here issues.

That's the advantage of indicator lights on the relay base, it shows at a glance if the relay contact is closed, otherwise it's hard to tell. I think a lot of times the relays get a bad rap because it's easy to blame something you can't see. I don't know how many times I have tried to start and found the kill switch partially pressed. Perhaps I should put a light there as well eh!

[mikie]

Disclaimer: I'm not very mechanically inclined, so I'm just speaking of what was done by my dealer. I used to have a 2002 LeMans, and it had the same problem that you're having. With no warning it'd just cut off at various speeds, sometimes quite dangerously while on a freeway. I had upgraded the relays, fiddled with the relay base, tried the sidestand switch disconnect, and yet this still kept occurring. One day while on a ride it kept cutting out repeatedly and only restarted when it felt like doing so. With much frustration I rerouted to the dealership and left it there. They replaced the ECU (thankfully under warranty), and after that the problem never happened again. Of course, YMMV.

[ScuRoo]

Disclaimer: I'm not very mechanically inclined, so I'm just speaking of what was done by my dealer. I used to have a 2002 LeMans, and it had the same problem that you're having. With no warning it'd just cut off at various speeds, sometimes quite dangerously while on a freeway. I had upgraded the relays, fiddled with the relay base, tried the sidestand switch disconnect, and yet this still kept occurring. One day while on a ride it kept cutting out repeatedly and only restarted when it felt like doing so. With much frustration I rerouted to the dealership and left it there. They replaced the ECU (thankfully under warranty), and after that the problem never happened again. Of course, YMMV.

 

Oh, crap! Now you're scaring me a bit Mikie as it's outta warranty! Hope pasotibbs story fits my bike $wise! Like Pasotibbs, I jiggled that kill switch a number of times and I kinda got a sense(errant?) that it had more to do with subsequent restarts than anything else I'd wiggled! (stopped near a bush, 'mose well drain me sump!)

 

I getting a sense that this seems to be a fairly common problem though throughout the V11 years. I was hoping that being one of the "last of the V11's" things would've been a teeny bit sorted than the early examples. Oh, I forgot, it was still made by the same fella's - probably after lunch.

[mikie]

I really hope for your sake that it's something simpler (read cheaper) than what I said was wrong with mine. Please keep us informed once you get it sorted.

[docc]

So it is that Relay 5 is your most likely culprit, yet there area couple simple things to look and listen for if she cuts out again:

 

When the key is on and the run switch is pushed on, is there a brief whir from the fuel pump? If so, Relay 5 (the rear most relay)is working.

 

Does the starter engage and the motor crank? If so, then the Run Switch is working.

 

Try to engage the starter in neutral with the stand down. If no crank then the neutral switch and the middle relay are suspect. Power to the run switch only goes through the sidestand switch when it is up and the bike is in gear.

 

Are all the lights and horn functional?

 

From your post it sounds like it is cranking, but not firing which brings us back to relay 5. (Again, most likely).

[pasotibbs]

Disclaimer: I'm not very mechanically inclined, so I'm just speaking of what was done by my dealer. I used to have a 2002 LeMans, and it had the same problem that you're having. With no warning it'd just cut off at various speeds, sometimes quite dangerously while on a freeway. I had upgraded the relays, fiddled with the relay base, tried the sidestand switch disconnect, and yet this still kept occurring. One day while on a ride it kept cutting out repeatedly and only restarted when it felt like doing so. With much frustration I rerouted to the dealership and left it there. They replaced the ECU (thankfully under warranty), and after that the problem never happened again. Of course, YMMV.

 

Oh, crap! Now you're scaring me a bit Mikie as it's outta warranty! Hope pasotibbs story fits my bike $wise! Like Pasotibbs, I jiggled that kill switch a number of times and I kinda got a sense(errant?) that it had more to do with subsequent restarts than anything else I'd wiggled! (stopped near a bush, 'mose well drain me sump!)

 

I getting a sense that this seems to be a fairly common problem though throughout the V11 years. I was hoping that being one of the "last of the V11's" things would've been a teeny bit sorted than the early examples. Oh, I forgot, it was still made by the same fella's - probably after lunch.

If a cycling the kill switch seems to work I'd say relay or kill switch contacts are likely to be the cause.