Oil change - wise to drop the sump. Now: next service

[belfastguzzi]

The Story of The Hammer and The Sludge

 

My Griso 8V is nearly 2 and a half years old. It's pretty low mileage as it's been off the road a lot: waiting for repairs; waiting for Piaggio; waiting for parts; getting fixed, eventually; getting fixed again; and other stuff like that. The oil has been changed a number of times, supposedly (I don't know – I just don't believe anything anymore). It would have been changed at the first dealer service; I changed it again; then the Big Nasty happened with disintegrating tappets/cams, followed by The Magic Flush Through with new oil that Makes Everything Alright and then a new clean fill of oil (10-40 semi – the only oil that any bike ever needs according to the dealer, never mind that Guzzi specify 10-60 synth). During that troublesome episode (long story, which some of you know) I insisted that the oil pump be inspected internally in case any of the tappet swarf had found its way there. Supposedly the dealer did open the pump and pronounced it and the whole engine sparkly clean with no debris left anywhere.

 

Jump to today and at 6250 miles it's the distance when the next main oil and filter change would normally be due. I decided to drop the sump, rather than just spin off the filter. I always did it with the V11 to clean out the watery emulsion that remains after an oil drain, but given the Griso history, I definitely wanted to check the state of things.

 

As you can see in the photos, I did find bits of rubbish in the sump: plastic, metallic and other black stuff. I also found that the oil pump intake filter was heavily layered with sticky sludge. I'm tempted to say, heavily obstructed by sludge, including bits of steel debris. Surely not good? So much for official Magic Flush Through With Oil That Makes Everything Alright after your tappets and cams disintegrate.

 

Even if there weren't the metallic bits, the black sludge sticking-up the filter gauze needs cleaning off

– so I'd recommend dropping the sump even on these new-fangled 8V motors, every so often.

 

Oh yes,The Hammer?

I was talking to some bikers at the weekend and heard that the nickname of the 'official dealer authorised service agent' who 'worked on' my bike and did so much damage, subsequent to the initial cam replacement, is...

...The Hammer.

Uh, yeh, that fits. (It's a long story.)

 

Sump & filter pics can be seen at this link here

 

Some of the pics >

 

 

Some of the bits in the sump >

[gstallons]

I wish I had something good to say..Since I don't: you had some dumbf**ks working on your bike that should have had midevial torture performed on them, the dealer that f**ked you over should be burned at the stake, the importer should be fed to the alligators and Guzzi should replace your bike.

[richard100t]

That is completely unacceptable for a new motorcycle in this day and age. At the very least you deserve a new motor. The only thing is, I wouldnt trust that dealer to put it in for you. What did that bike cost about 15,000 usd? 6500 miles and the oil pan looks like someone let off a small hand grenade in the motor. Since you are a loyal, repeat Guzzi owner they should show up with a new identical bike and haul yours away on the way home. Thats my

[pete roper]

Sorry, a C&P of my reply to Dave on Guzzitech

 

Yeah. Fucking brilliant eh? The red gauze filter is the ONLY filter for the cooling oil and, I think but I'm not sure, the top end. The other pick-up is for the bearing delivery oil which IS filtered through the conventional spin on filter but i think that the camboxes are fed by the high volume, low pressure, cooling side. while this seems counter intuitive old Suzuki GS's f'rinstance had rolling element cranks and plain bearing top ends and ran bugger all oil pressure to the cam bearings so I imagine it's all been thought out reasonably well.

 

I have to say Dave that it makes me very glad that my tappets never failed. I also would be HIGHLY skeptical of whether the oil pumps had been inspected as getting to them is a much more involved job than it is on a V11 or earlier Tonti simply because of the need to remove the alternator before you can get to the timing chest cover.

 

Pete

[Skeeve]

I take it you have no lemon-law coverage in N. Ireland to force Piaggio to make things right? As others have pointed out, you really deserve a brand new motor, if not a whole new bike...

[pete roper]

What I'd like to know is why when Aprilia drop a bollock, (Having three out of your four demo bikes throw a rod out the case on a track in Spain is, in my book, a fairly large bollock drop.) they get an imediate world-wide recall for ALL motors on the early RSV4's even though only about 30% were affected but when Guzzis have a problem caused by CHEAPSHIT bean counting we are told to make do with an 'Engine Flush'?? @#!#$# off. It's bollocks and makes me want to weep with frustration.

 

95% of the fucking dentists who will buy an RSV4 for their trip to the cafe once a month would be FAR better off with a Guzzi than an RSV4. But which marque gets the push, pimp and chunder........

 

Bollocks!!!!!!

 

I REALLY like the Nuovo 8V. it's a grouse motor and deserves more plaudits than it gets. The Griso package particularly is superb, (And I'm being objective here, you know I'm a 'Griso Nutter'.) I'm just ground down by experiences like Dave's that should be entirely avoidable! None of my customers' bikes would be allowed to be treated like that. It's business suicide!!!!

 

Pete

[jrt]

There is no way I can muster fury like Pete can....

But I do hope you have lemon laws. Talk to a lawyer, eh, litigator, instigator, whatever you call those things. Send Piaggo a box of wasps.

[Baldini]

David, I have nothing useful to offer, only my sympathy. Sometimes the effort required to get any satisfaction is more than it'll ever be worth. You are evidently dealing with arseoles. I wish you all the best, after the investment you have made in their products, you deserve much better from Guzzi. Still the bike is working OK at present???

What would it take to get that old LM111 you have going? They really are a pleasure to ride - old technology, proven & simple.

 

Cheers, Keith

[Skeeve]

Send Piaggo a box of wasps.

 

 

I realize this is likely just a colloquialism, but I really like this as an effective means of communication! Unfortunately, in the case of Piaggio, some unfortunate mail room clerk is likely to get stung, instead of the executive V.P. in charge of pissing off the customers whom it should go to...

[belfastguzzi]

Some findings from the next service. I dropped the sump again as I wanted to replace the gauze filter.

 

The debris in the oil sump was lumpy enough, though not such a mystifying mixture as last time.

What do you think, does it look normal/acceptable?

 

I have some more comments on the dreadful spark plug system, where Guzzi seems to have decided that it's alright to have an expensive boot that becomes 'welded' into the engine and so is difficult to remove (in one piece).

 

I was glad to see that the tappet gaps were still as I had set them last time. This was a marked change from the results of the official service agent's adjustments. Both times that he did them and I later checked, the gaps were all over the place, with some completely closed tight and others gaping open. Was it another problem with the engine, or was it dreadfully bad technical sevrice? Now I can say that it was careless, useless setting by 'The Hammer'.

 

I changed all the various fluids. I had completely flushed the front brake fluid before, but mustn't have done the clutch, as it was black. Though I did bleed the clutch before: I'm a bit surprised if I didn't flush it clean. There's not much fluid in the clutch reservoir, so perhaps it does get contaminated pretty quickly. I think it's wise to check it every so often. The V11 was the same: clutch fluid became very black.

 

I must attend to the bad neutral sensor, as per other thread.

Otherwise the bike is going well. I just wish that I didn't always have the niggle that the previous problems have caused premature

wear and damage that hasn't surfaced yet and that other associated issues weren't there, like the broken and now glued-in fuel pump outlet etc etc etc.

 

Pics to come next

[belfastguzzi]

Oil dregs debris.

 

Last time I found metal shards and some sort of rubbery or plastic bits.

 

This time:

 

No! There wasn't a spanner in the sump. It's there to give scale, as is the toothbrush, in case some people on here don't know what a spanner is.

 

 

 

 

What do you think?

[belfastguzzi]

The gauze filter wasn't nearly as bad as it was last time, after The Hammer's service. It was covered in gunge and debris then.

This time it's fairly clear. I got a new one and put it in now.

 

 

[belfastguzzi]

The spark plug boot issue.

 

As you may know from previous discussion, the first plug boots were a troublesome item. They weren't constructed well and sparks could be seen jumping through the boot to the engine head. Another big problem is that the boot jammed tightly in the plug tube and efforts to remove it could tear it and make it un-useable again. An improved design was introduced, but it's still bad. The plug boot effectively becomes locked into the head tube by rust.

 

Water becomes trapped in the double-seal and then the steel tube corrodes and becomes rough and lumpy with rust. This makes the removal of the already tight and sunken plug boot much more difficult as it is physically captured.

 

THe rusty rubber plug boot coming out of the rusty plug tube (the spark plug is far down within the head).

 

 

rusty tube

 

 

The ring of rust that is caused by the boot design and holds the plug boot in. The corrosion will eventually destroy the tube. I turned it around so that the rust ring is at the bottom, to slow down the tube's destruction. Must price new ones, or see about getting some made from good stainless. The tube ends have a taper.

 

[gstallons]

I don't know if Ford sells this in Europe or not but here in the U.S. they market a silicone grease for brake calipers & dielectric applications. In your case you would want to give it a liberal amount to where the spark plug wire is sticking to the bore of the tube and in the cavity that goes onto the spark plug end. This wil prevent water intrusion and make the boot easy to remove the next time.

[grossohc]

BFG If i saw all that crap in the bottom of my bikes sump i would be worried . was going to suggest send a oil sample away for analysis but dont think they could tell you anything more than you already know. Have you opened up the oil filter to see what crap was trapped in there!!!

Gary