Breva 1100 starting problem

[belfastguzzi]

That's good Iain. I don't think that I had seen that particular thread.

 

This is one on Wildguzzi:

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=36793.msg553740#msg553740

 

Is this now the definitive solution? Have others found the change in wiring/additional cable to be an effective long-term fix?

[IainW]

That's good Iain. I don't think that I had seen that particular thread.

 

This is one on Wildguzzi:

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=36793.msg553740#msg553740

 

Is this now the definitive solution? Have others found the change in wiring/additional cable to be an effective long-term fix?

 

For me and my Breva, the relay pin 3, direct to the batery has solved the issue for good.

[antonio carroccio]

I've got to answer this one.

 

I am pissed off!!! My bike still have start problems and whatever I do (the garage also) we do not solve this fuc&$+@kin problem at all!!!

 

So, that's all I have to say.

[belfastguzzi]

I've got to answer this one.

 

I am pissed off!!! My bike still have start problems and whatever I do (the garage also) we do not solve this fuc&$+@kin problem at all!!!

 

So, that's all I have to say.

Have you tried the wiring mod, Antonio?

[gstallons]

Do you have a wiring diagram you can e-me ? Maybe I can help you solve it. I am very good (at times) with diagnosing electrical problems.

Gene

[IainW]

Do you have a wiring diagram you can e-me ? Maybe I can help you solve it. I am very good (at times) with diagnosing electrical problems.

Gene

Guzzitech has one here!

You can see that from the starter relay pin3 to the battery there is a lot of stuff in between. What the diagram doesn't show is the reduction in wire diameter at one point which is the main cause of the problem. A wire straight from pin 3 to the battery cuts all this out.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I just happened on this thread again. I have been studying the drawings for Guzzis after 2005 and it seems they have made a big step backwards in the wiring dept.

The start relay used to be powered this way - Fuse, Start relay, solenoid

Now it's going Fuse, Ignition Switch, fuse, start relay, solenoid, thats stupid.

The starter solenoid wants to draw about 50 Amps so if you have even the slightest resistance in the ignition switch , say 0.5 Ohms you get less than half what it needs.

The early bikes would still start easily with 10 - 15 Ohms resistance in the ignition switch because their relays were wired properly IMHO.

Whoever came up with the solution to cut the yellow wire at Start Relay and power it from the battery via a new fuse should take a bow. (makes it like a V11 or LeMans)

 

My oppologies to others who have pointed out the problem

[pete roper]

You need to run a wire from pin 3 on the relay to the +ve terminal on the battery and all your troubles will be gone.

 

 

This must be a problem that is prevalent in cooler or damper climates. While I've heard about it I have never actually had first hand experience of it. The problem with Guzzi's long standing and byzantine starting circuit is though well documented! Certainly adding a direct feed to pin #3 is a good idea. As is removing the starter motor cover and giving the earth strap mounting point a jolly good clean and smear with contact/terminal protectant.

 

In the orignial case mentione here though the fact that the bike is a very early Breva 1100 raises a couple of questions.

 

Some of the very early gearboxes used on Grisos and Brevas had a couple of problems. One was the rattling of the face cam shouck absorber on the input shaft due to insufficient pre-loading and the second one was that on a few boxes the retaining screws for one of the bearings, (I think the front input shaft bearing from memory?) were ommited and this allowed the bearing and shaft to 'Walk' back into the box. "So what the @#!#$# has this got to do with a starting problem?" you may ask? well the thing is to rectify either of these faults requires the gearbox to be disassembled. One of the things that has to be done to achieve this is that the neutral switch has to be removed and it seems that the switch is VERY sensitive. Guzzi actually posted out a service bulletin on the Servicemotoguzzi page stating that if the switch had been removed that on re-installation it is VITAL that a new crush washer be used and that the switch should be torqued EXACTLY to the prescibed torque! Failure to do this could lead to? Give you one guess........

 

So? Do you know if your gearbox needed either of the above mentioned repairs? If so it may well be that the crush washer wasn't replaced or the switch was incorrectly torqued. Not suggesting this IS the problem but it does make sense doesn't it? As for Dave's bike? god alone knows what happened to that poor thing after it was butchered by Retardus Maximus in NI!

 

Pete

[belfastguzzi]

 

So? Do you know if your gearbox needed either of the above mentioned repairs? If so it may well be that the crush washer wasn't replaced or the switch was incorrectly torqued. Not suggesting this IS the problem but it does make sense doesn't it?

 

Interesting additional information.

As you know, I have the no-start problem and I have wondered if it could have a relation to the neutral switch. I concluded, probably not. The way it works, I think that it's the poor wiring: but it could be both things.

 

My neutral switch has been bad since the start. It only comes on about 50% of the time. This is a nuisance on the road and in traffic and it also means that the engine can't be started and run while the bike is standing with side-stand down.

 

Again the Piaggio Guzzi system has been useless/negligent. Original dealer just said, 'oh'. After he quickly went out of business, The Hammer said that the switches give problems and he under warranty. Of course, like everything else, it never arrived. Piaggio UK importers... don't care.

 

Some day I'll order one myself and fit it, but it's awkward to get at.

Shall I say it again? Not good enough aftercare, Piaggio Guzzi. Your idiotic business approach is losing you sales. And that's a fact. For want of a nail – the kingdom is lost.

 

 

Right, I'm off to change the oil and see what unidentifiable debris I find in the sump, this time.

Then tomorrow I'm off to the track (first time ever and 35 years too late) to thrash this monstrous heap of lard (

[IainW]

You need to run a wire from pin 3 on the relay to the +ve terminal on the battery and all your troubles will be gone.

 

 

This must be a problem that is prevalent in cooler or damper climates. While I've heard about it I have never actually had first hand experience of it. The problem with Guzzi's long standing and byzantine starting circuit is though well documented! Certainly adding a direct feed to pin #3 is a good idea. As is removing the starter motor cover and giving the earth strap mounting point a jolly good clean and smear with contact/terminal protectant.

 

In the orignial case mentione here though the fact that the bike is a very early Breva 1100 raises a couple of questions.

 

Some of the very early gearboxes used on Grisos and Brevas had a couple of problems. One was the rattling of the face cam shouck absorber on the input shaft due to insufficient pre-loading and the second one was that on a few boxes the retaining screws for one of the bearings, (I think the front input shaft bearing from memory?) were ommited and this allowed the bearing and shaft to 'Walk' back into the box. "So what the @#!#$# has this got to do with a starting problem?" you may ask? well the thing is to rectify either of these faults requires the gearbox to be disassembled. One of the things that has to be done to achieve this is that the neutral switch has to be removed and it seems that the switch is VERY sensitive. Guzzi actually posted out a service bulletin on the Servicemotoguzzi page stating that if the switch had been removed that on re-installation it is VITAL that a new crush washer be used and that the switch should be torqued EXACTLY to the prescibed torque! Failure to do this could lead to? Give you one guess........

 

So? Do you know if your gearbox needed either of the above mentioned repairs? If so it may well be that the crush washer wasn't replaced or the switch was incorrectly torqued. Not suggesting this IS the problem but it does make sense doesn't it? As for Dave's bike? god alone knows what happened to that poor thing after it was butchered by Retardus Maximus in NI!

 

Pete

 

Pete, just relating my personal experiences on my 05 Breva...

 

I had the pin three issue last year, it appeared during our UK summer and showed on one day which was particulary hot, though never on a cold engine, only when it had been parked for a few short minutes on a hot engine. Maybe not climate, but as mentioned on the Guzzitech forum I believe that it's the route the wiring takes before power gets to the relay and suffers a small voltage drop. All my electrical contacts appear good, they're all dry and clean, especially the earth.

 

I have also had an issue with the neutral switch a few weeks ago. The symptoms were that even though the bike was in neutral the green light wasn't on, and having the side stand down it wouldn't start. A bit of up and down with the lever eventually brought it back on but as the motor was trying to bust into life the vibration would flick the neutral switch and it would cut out. A few goes at this and it would start and off I went. I replaced the switch the week the trouble started, but not the crush washer, I tightened it by feel, not to a specific torque, I must have got it just about right. It's been fine since, no more neutral light issues or starting problems.

 

Iain

[Aquarius64]

It's nothing to do with the gear box, messing with the lever just gives the battery a little more time to find a bit of umph. I had the same issue with my 05 Breva 1100, and BelfastGuzzi is right. It's all on here...

This way >>>

 

You need to run a wire from pin 3 on the relay to the +ve terminal on the battery and all your troubles will be gone.

I guess IainW nailed it!

 

I measure 12V on pin 3, but when I start this drops to 6.3V, which isn't enough to close the solenoid on the starter motor

Leading 12V directly from the battery to this pin 3 will feed the solenoid command with strong 12V power and solve the problem.

 

I'm gonna try it, because i have the same problem, I guess the circuit going to pin 3 is too long with too much contacts.

 

Thx  Koen

[Kiwi_Roy]

Where did this old topic come from?, surely all owners are aware of "Startus Interrupts"at this day and age

 

This effects nearly every guzzi built for the last 40 years and is very easy to fix. The starter solenoid would like to draw 40 - 50 Amps as it pulls the starter gear into mesh the factory don't seem to be aware of this.

It hasn't got a chance the way it's wired through the ignition switch. The resistance of the wire and switch contacts drops the Voltage to the relay right down until the solenoid is too weak to move.

 

Snip the yellow wire feeding the start relay and feed it with a decent supply direct from the battery and your troubles are over.

 

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2005_Breva_1100.gif

 

Funny thing I only recently noticed that the bike has a built in aid staring us in the face, If you open up the schematic and trace the yellow wire from the start relay it wanders across the page and feeds the Number plate light, have someone watch the light and they will see it go dim when the starter hangs up.

 

Sorry about the size of my sketch, I will fix it up in a few days

 

 

If anyone still has a problem with failing to crank shoot me off a PM, I have literally been through it with hundreds of Guzzi owners.

Cheers, 

Roy