callison Posted November 17, 2003 Posted November 17, 2003 I've been putting the Bugswatter back together. I would have had it back together before now, but there have been a few detours on the path to happiness, namely, totalled my V11 Sport, totalled my truck, married off a daughter and a son and then had the family van get rear ended plus trying to achieve certification for some stuff at work. Busy year. Oh yeah. Things you shouldn't do. In the initial steps of trying to determine just what in heck was wrong with the Bugswatter, I sent the injectors down to my local NAPA parts store where they clean them up and put in new o-rings. If you think that this is a good way of making certain that the injectors are fresh, you'd be wrong. After putting the bike back together, there was no evidence of fuel entering the ports. Assuming (and you know where that gets you) that the injectors were the LEAST likely source of trouble, I spend a lot of time head scratching, gnashing of teeth and bloodying of knuckles assembling and disassembling the fuel system. Eventually, I got it down to the point where every thing was apart and only the fuel pump and the injectors were connected. No computer, nothing else, nada. Energized the pump, hit the injector with 12 volts and... nothing. Zip. So, I took an injector off of the California (also in many pieces in the garage) and stuck it in the same spot and tried the test again. Fuel. Lots of it. The moral of this story is if you're going to have the injectors cleaned or you suspect that there's a problem, find a shop that specializes in injectors and offers a warranty. I'm probably going to have to shell out for a new pair of injectors. I also ran across the following information while trying to find another source for fuel injectors in case mine can't be salvaged. Weber fuel injection specs for the typical MG injector. General Specification Type: Electromagnetic petrol injector, calibrated orifice type. Construction: Fully sealed unit. Electrical: Standard 2-pin Minitimer connector. Weight: 100 grams. Sealing, 'O' ring. 14mm O.D. is available separately. Part Number 4156504700. N.B. Matched sets of injectors are available to special order. Part Product DC Static Flow Number Description Type Color Resistance (3 bar) WFI91 Injector IW031 Green 16.2 Ohms 270 cc/min 1
al_roethlisberger Posted November 17, 2003 Posted November 17, 2003 ....so I wonder what NAPA managed to do to the injectors?? al
jrt Posted November 17, 2003 Posted November 17, 2003 And remind me not to loan you my car! Hopefully, the injectors are just plugged up with something. Maybe a good hot soak in a carb-cleaner? Someone more knowledgeable will surely chime in. cheers, Jason
Mike Stewart Posted November 19, 2003 Posted November 19, 2003 And remind me not to loan you my car! Hopefully, the injectors are just plugged up with something. Maybe a good hot soak in a carb-cleaner? Someone more knowledgeable will surely chime in. cheers, Jason Injectors are not like carburators. Cleaners will damage the windings on most injectors. This will cause the injectors to short out internally and cause all types of problems. This is most likely what happened to Carl's injectors when they were cleaned. If it ain't broke, don't fix it! Mike
jrt Posted November 19, 2003 Posted November 19, 2003 So, let me project my ignorance here. I think of fuel injection as a solenoid connected to an orifice (injector) that atomizes the gas. Pressurized gas is always on, and the valve is opened at the appropriate time. Gas flows through the open valve into the intake manifold. To clean the injectors, I would think you would need to remove the valve and -a crude approximation- swab a pipe cleaner through it. So, maybe what I should be thinking is that the solenoid is the orifice? Cheers, Jason
callison Posted November 19, 2003 Author Posted November 19, 2003 Tolerances in injectors are unbelievably fine. Do some web searching or googling or something to some of the firms that "rebuild" injectors (they're sealed units, you typically cannot actually rebuild them) and check out some of the specifications. They're pretty expensive too, about $400 each! On a separate note, the Bugswatter engine is actually running. How very odd that it runs extremely poorly on the Weber Marelli computer and when switched to the Cliff Jeffries unit, it actually just sits there and burbles happily, albeit at a somewhat elevated rpm. There are a lot of things to be done yet, but progress is being made. I haven't put together a front wheel or modified the Ducati footpegs to fit yet, so it's a ways from being roadworthy. Meanwhile, the real front wheel from the Sport 1100i is on the V11 Sport. This wheel has the Centauro/Daytona disks on it. I had forgotten how nice cast iron was until I borrowed this wheel.
Paul Minnaert Posted November 19, 2003 Posted November 19, 2003 Is the engine running with the cleaned injectors? or th cali ones? Should run the same with both, or are they different? Some time ago I bought a complete duc 996 throtlebody with all parts on it, not a bad investment, if I have to pay 400$ for one injector:-)
al_roethlisberger Posted November 20, 2003 Posted November 20, 2003 Part Product DC Static Flow Number Description Type Color Resistance (3 bar) WFI91 Injector IW031 Green 16.2 Ohms 270 cc/min ...hrmm, I wonder how much that spec above about "3 Bar" matters, and what it references exactly? The reason I ask is that after talking to the folks down at Evoluzione a while back about their kit to make the fuel-pressure regulator adjustable, they recommended bumping the fuel-pressure up to about 3.5 Bar(~50psi) over the stock 3 Bar(~45psi) once one increases intake or exhaust capacity/flow significantly. I had read this somewhere else before as well. So, I have a 3.5 Bar pressure regulator I am about to install, and wonder if the spec above means that the injectors aren't rated for over 3 Bar? I'd hate to "blow them out"... although Evoluzione has had their pressure cranked up on their Tenni for a long time, so maybe it's fine... al
callison Posted November 20, 2003 Author Posted November 20, 2003 3 bar is the reference pressure level that flow is measured by for the industry. Two years ago at the Prescott Ralley, there was 1997 California 1100i that had a Sport 1100i cam in it. The cam was a bit much for the stock fuel flow, so the owner upped the regulator pressure and all is well. I borrowed the injectors from my California for the Sport 1100i. Before I can actually put the bike on the street, I'm going to have to get the fuel mixtures set and that probably means a trip to SoCal to Dyno Dudes. That won't happen for a while because of a lack of funds. I'm still waiting for the dual tower coils to arrive from Moto Internationa as well since there would be no point in doing the dyno runs for anything less than the full up configuration. I haven't even bought the usb to serial adaptor for my iBook to drive the Cliff Jeffries ECU from his program under Virtual PC yet. This ought to be interesting...
callison Posted November 22, 2003 Author Posted November 22, 2003 I got the injectors back from the NAPA guys today (again). The bench guy said they now spraw evenly and flow well. Not a very calibrated reply, but then again, they didn't charge me. However, the screens in the injectors had problems, one was falling apart (and clogging the injector) and the other one was full of particulate garbage (and clogging the injector). So they threw away the screens leaving me to find a replacement set. These are not you standard size screens so I had to order some from the place I should have sent the injectors to in the first place, a firm called G & B (NOT Ghezzi & Brian) near Moto Guzzi Classics in Long Beach, California. While the screens were cheap, there was a minimum order so I'm going to have a few spares - about eleven pairs of them after keeping some for my bikes. When you guys start hitting some reasonably high mileages, let me know if you need some and for a nominal fee (pink slip to your bike, a Ferrari or a Maserati, home in the Bahamas) I'll send you some screens. Normally, they probablly don't need to be changed too often. I don't know how the particulate matter got into mine or what it was. It will be interesting to see how the other bikes fare. I have > 57,000 miles on the Sport 1100i, > 30,000 on the V11 Sport and > 28,000 on the California. They all use the same injector too. Nothing like parts commonality. FWIW, I officially passed the 100,000 miles on Guzzis mark while at the MGNOC National in July. Not too bad for a five year riding period when I was off the bkes for a total of 14 months.
Gio Posted November 25, 2003 Posted November 25, 2003 Congratulations on the 100k miles! As per an earlier post, I found a whole bunch of very fine (almost charcoal powder like) crap in my fuel filter last time and suspect it may have come from the fuel lines...? Fortunately this was on the entrance side of the filter but who knows how much could get through...? Gio
Lex Posted November 25, 2003 Posted November 25, 2003 ...hrmm, I wonder how much that spec above about "3 Bar" matters, and what it references exactly Just FYI, a Bar is one sea level atmosphere or 14.50377 PSI. So a 3 Bar working pressure is 43.51132 PSI for the metric changed. I highly recommend convert-me.com for this kind of stuff. Cheers, Lex
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