Starter Question

[OldButNotDead]

I am using the GEI relays but hadn't considered the relay to be a problem since the starter gear is engaging the flywheel. Am I wrong there?

 

When I took the solenoid apart last year it was in good shape. I cleaned it up and added a slight bit of grease on the walls of the tube to prevent rust. It seems to me that it's working fine before & after I went in there. I cleaned, greased and tightened all electrical connections on the starter when I reinstalled it and the symptoms didn't change.

 

I only popped a fuse once by holding down the starter button when the engine wouldn't turn over. After that never held the button down beyond 4 seconds when it was refusing to turn over for fear of popping another fuse.

 

A few years ago I had a 30 year old garden tractor starter rebuilt for $75 when I couldn't find a new replacement which cost about $120. The rebuilt starter worked OK but not great for about a year then died again. I bought a new one and it worked MUCH better than the old one ever did. Based on that experience I'm more inclined to spend a little extra money for a new unit over a rebuild.

 

OBND, did you go with the Valeo or EnDuralast unit from EME?

 

Valeo. My experience was similar to yours, minus the blowing fuse. After the new one went in, I took the old one apart, but couldn't find anything wrong with it.

[Kiwi_Roy]

All kinds of good information on the Airhead site if you click on the links

Here's an article on changing from Valeo to Bosch.

http://www.airheads.org/content/view/307/98/

Another good site

http://www.dansmc.com/electric_starters.htm

 

I think the Bosch starters are a conventional series wound motor.

Series wound motors develop more torque and speed so they can do away with the reduction box

Shunt wound and permanent magnet motors have the same characteristics, low top speed whereas

a series motor will wind right up if the torque is low enough so they were the main choice for traction

applications, think diesel electric trains.

 

Is spitting the magnets a common problem with Guzzis or is it more common with BMW because of

the hot starter location?

 

 

Roy

[gstallons]

The permanent magnet motors cost VERY little to manufacture. The problem is the bonding material letting go that holds the magnet to the case and the magnet moves, falls off or get knocked loose from the case from foriegn material.

Heat , petroleum products or debris getting in the starter case causes this.

 

 

[luhbo]

The Valeo (or similar) still is the starter to choose. The biggest advantage is its weight and the possibility to use tiny little batteries.

The early Valeos trew their magnets because of a lack of torsional stiffness of the pole tube I was told, what sounds very reasonable. Four seasons ago I had to replace the pole tube of my Valeo and never had any starter resp. starting problems since that.

 

Two things to remember:

- the pole tubes are delicate - don't knock on them (as you did on Bosches)

- don't buy pole tubes for Beemers, they're different

 

hubert

[Kiwi_Roy]

The Valeo (or similar) still is the starter to choose. The biggest advantage is its weight and the possibility to use tiny little batteries.

The early Valeos trew their magnets because of a lack of torsional stiffness of the pole tube I was told, what sounds very reasonable. Four seasons ago I had to replace the pole tube of my Valeo and never had any starter resp. starting problems since that.

 

Two things to remember:

- the pole tubes are delicate - don't knock on them (as you did on Bosches)

- don't buy pole tubes for Beemers, they're different

 

hubert

When I was an apprentice electrician we used to fix a lot of conventional starters, series motor type. A lot of the times the field insulation was broken down and it was shorting to the frame. We would re-tape the fields. The Valeo on my Guzzi was the first permanent magnet starter i had seen. Simpler in one way without the series field but more complicated with the gearbox. Good point about the small battery the shunt motor (permanent magnet) draws less current once it gets spinning but then again it won't spin as fast.

Regards

Roy

[gstallons]

The Valeo (or similar) still is the starter to choose. The biggest advantage is its weight and the possibility to use tiny little batteries.

The early Valeos trew their magnets because of a lack of torsional stiffness of the pole tube I was told, what sounds very reasonable. Four seasons ago I had to replace the pole tube of my Valeo and never had any starter resp. starting problems since that.

 

Two things to remember:

- the pole tubes are delicate - don't knock on them (as you did on Bosches)

- don't buy pole tubes for Beemers, they're different

 

hubert

 

 

Oh yes, do not hit on the starter case with ANYTHING stiffer than a feather. You can knock the magnet loose or worse crack (one of the magnets) it then you are in for troubles !

[pasotibbs]

I seem to have a bit of a dead spot in my starter. Over the last year or so about 1 in 10 times that I try to start the bike I will hear the starter gear engage but the engine won't turn over. At this point I know that if I hold the button down for more than 3 or 4 seconds without the engine turning over it will cook the fuse so I let up then hit it again for a couple seconds. After two or three more tries the engine will suddenly turn over and fire up. Last winter I followed the forum's advice and opened up the solenoid and made sure it was clean and the slug was moving freely so I'm pretty sure that the problem isn't there.

 

I replaced the battery this past Spring and the starting problem remained so I really think the issue is with the starter. Is there anything I can do with it other than buy a replacement? If I do have to replace it does anyone have any experience with the non-Valeo starters that are available from EME or on ebay?

Mine sometimes does this also,and has done for ages, it appears to be the solenoid not engaging fully as I can hear it operate but the starter does not turn.When it fails to work I hold the starter button in and work the clutch switch until the starter turns (usually between 2 and 5 attempts works) ,it seems worse when the bikes been stood a while.

I replaced the solenoid but could only get second hand(for free) as the starter repair place was having difficulty sourcing new parts due to the Euro exchange rate, it seemed to cure it for a while but the fault returned.

I may try to get a new solenoid this year and give that a go.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I seem to have a bit of a dead spot in my starter. Over the last year or so about 1 in 10 times that I try to start the bike I will hear the starter gear engage but the engine won't turn over. At this point I know that if I hold the button down for more than 3 or 4 seconds without the engine turning over it will cook the fuse so I let up then hit it again for a couple seconds. After two or three more tries the engine will suddenly turn over and fire up. Last winter I followed the forum's advice and opened up the solenoid and made sure it was clean and the slug was moving freely so I'm pretty sure that the problem isn't there.

 

I replaced the battery this past Spring and the starting problem remained so I really think the issue is with the starter. Is there anything I can do with it other than buy a replacement? If I do have to replace it does anyone have any experience with the non-Valeo starters that are available from EME or on ebay?

 

Just for the hell of it after overhauling my Valeo I did an experiment and left the heavy wire off the battery to simulate a bad starter main contact. The 15 amp fuse popped in about 1/2 a second.

For your fuse to last 4 seconds and assuming your starter contacts are OK I would suspect a high resistance, say 1/2 Ohm between the 15 Amp fuse and the starter solenoid coil via the relay allowing it to pull say 25 amps but not pulling the main contacts closed to spin the motor, I would check the relay base contacts to see if they are tight, also check the fuse contacts it could be a bad connection there also.

A way to check this would be to run a jumper wire from the small terminal of the starter and touch it on the battery post to see if the starter performance improved MAKE SURE THE BIKE IS IN NEUTRAL FIRST

Valeo Starter.pdf

[Bjor]

First of all, I am glad that we have tutors like Kiwi-Roy among us - he alone -with his clear thoughts and pdf's- makes it worth being on this interesting forum

I found something on the German eBay that could be of interest to cope with the falling-off magnets of the Valeo starters:

 

http://cgi.ebay.de/GEHAUSE-MOTO-GUZZI-STARTER-ANLASSER-VALEO-D6RA-210-/260715570989?pt=Motorrad_Kraftradteile&hash=item3cb3dbe72d

 

I am not absolutely sure if I understand exactly how it works, but when the Germans say that something works, it usually does. Maybe some og our German members can explain more?

[rossoandy]

This sounds like a poor solenoid internal connect to me....

 

However I'd like to add that on a few occasions my Rosso has done just the same but I found waggling the handlebars lock to lock bought the starter into life!

I must have a poor connection in the loom somewhere I guess,trouble is the fault is never there when I at home and can do some proper diagnosis!

 

Finally,is not the FIAT 126 starter the same? If so it may be possible to source one more cheaply?

 

Andy

[grossohc]

However I'd like to add that on a few occasions my Rosso has done just the same but I found waggling the handlebars lock to lock bought the starter into life!

I must have a poor connection in the loom somewhere I guess,trouble is the fault is never there when I at home and can do some proper diagnosis!

 

Andy

That will be the connections under the tank on the left side, I think it was the wires from the clutch/side stand are a bit loose. Just a wee crimp with pliers and thats another problem out of the way!!!.

[Kiwi_Roy]

However I'd like to add that on a few occasions my Rosso has done just the same but I found waggling the handlebars lock to lock bought the starter into life!

I must have a poor connection in the loom somewhere I guess,trouble is the fault is never there when I at home and can do some proper diagnosis!

 

Andy

That will be the connections under the tank on the left side, I think it was the wires from the clutch/side stand are a bit loose. Just a wee crimp with pliers and thats another problem out of the way!!!.

My bike does exactly the same from time to time, full right lock and it starts every time. One of these days I will have to fix it. I figured it was a broken wire but I will check the connectors first as you suggest.

You Know what they say about a mechanics car, it applies also to an electricians bike, I'd rather be riding than wrenching LOL

I like to apply vaseline to all the connectors also, prevents any corrosion issue

Cheers

Roy

[gstallons]

Ford/Motorcraft sell an electrical connector grease I use. It is part # XG-12. I use on critical plug in connectors that are outside the car's interior.

 

 

[Chuck]

However I'd like to add that on a few occasions my Rosso has done just the same but I found waggling the handlebars lock to lock bought the starter into life!

I must have a poor connection in the loom somewhere I guess,trouble is the fault is never there when I at home and can do some proper diagnosis!

 

Andy

That will be the connections under the tank on the left side, I think it was the wires from the clutch/side stand are a bit loose. Just a wee crimp with pliers and thats another problem out of the way!!!.

My bike does exactly the same from time to time, full right lock and it starts every time. One of these days I will have to fix it. I figured it was a broken wire but I will check the connectors first as you suggest.

You Know what they say about a mechanics car, it applies also to an electricians bike, I'd rather be riding than wrenching LOL

I like to apply vaseline to all the connectors also, prevents any corrosion issue

Cheers

Roy

 

Like Grossohc said, it will be on the left side by the steering head. Bullet connectors. Take em apart, squirt them with Wayne's De Oxit gold, make sure they fit reasonably well and forget about it. Maybe a little Kiwi Roy vaseline on the outside..

[Tom M]

Since I started this thread I'll try to finish it. I removed the starter and verified that all electrical connections were good. I took the starter completely apart and didn't find any problems at all. The brushes were good, magnets were good, and there were no loose or broken parts. As I was putting it back together I cracked the plastic brush holder . That part is available from EME as part of their "tuneup kit plus" but since I didn't find anything wrong with the starter before I screwed it up I decided that I didn't want to rebuild it only to have the same starting problems that I had to begin with so...I bought a new Valeo starter from EME. So far the bike turns over and starts every time I hit the starter button. Problem solved? I hope so.